Outer Limits 4x4 Board

mickrangie wrote:

BTW all 4.11 are noisy at about 60kmh in the rear... just the cut of the gears

All I got 2 sets and neither rears are noisey, usually bad gear contact creates noise

cloughy wrote:

mickrangie wrote:

BTW all 4.11 are noisy at about 60kmh in the rear... just the cut of the gears

All I got 2 sets and neither rears are noisey, usually bad gear contact creates noise

I agree... I think that is Andrew stories again.. else the fronts would be noisy too... but they arent a straight cut gear of anything..

If anything I would have thought the front would be noisier. Many of the 4.11's are not reverse cut so the front in theory would be noisier.

that is correct

it was a mech from ritter that told me that but anyway...


the noise on his 4.11 kick in at exactly the same pint as the noise on mine and it is my rear cause i have driven twice in 2 wheel drive once from the dyno and 2nd time for ellis

cloughy wrote:

mickrangie wrote:

BTW all 4.11 are noisy at about 60kmh in the rear... just the cut of the gears

All I got 2 sets and neither rears are noisey, usually bad gear contact creates noise

my 4.11 came from the USA 4 years ago... where did yrs come from??

1 set are KAM's gears the other i'm unsure of they were second handies

We got ours at different time (years apart) so that is strange in it self that his is the same as mine... interesting to see how these Ashcroft ones go.
I must admit the noise is getting less these days or i am becoming immune to it. But I was in my mates car the other day and his is no where as bad as mine but still noticeable and he uses his as a DD so it might just go away one day. I have done less then 15k in my rangie in 4 years so that give you an idea on how much I drive it.

Mick

shiit...just read all of this stuff bout the Ashcroft 4.11 R&Ps, ie, the same ones we bought for Disco Dave and are about to install.....nearly had a heart attack after reading the first post bout them not fitting .......Just got the new flanges to suit from Ashcroft too, and nothing was said bout any maching being needed.

Know what to do now though, and will be seeking out someone here in Tassie who knows what they are doing with diff set ups - or have a go ourselves - don't care if it takes a couple of days/week/months to get it right.

Thanks for the good advice guys, pity Walker had to pay for it!

Walker still hasn't enlightened us on exactly went wrong with there install, i wouldn't be to worried, you just need someone whom really knows diff's or someone who knows rovers diffs and if you pay, get a quote

Sorry, I thought I did tell everyone.

First - There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the Ashcroft 4.11's they were all perfect. Sorry I even hinted there might be something wrong with them but that was what I was told by the installer to start with.

I think all my troubles came from not getting the right person to install them and the lack of knowledge I had about diffs. They were recommended to me and I was told that they had done plenty of 4.11's before on Land Rovers. My rear diff had to be machined because the existing pinion bearing had been loose and had worn the housing. They also listed a number of other problems they had with the diffs which I was told was caused by shoddy installation work on previous occasions. However when I listed out all the things they said they had to do as extra's to another very experienced LR mechanic I was told that all the things they listed were mostly part of a standard install anyway and should not have taken much extra time. I don't think i am ever going to get the truth out of this place but if I had to guess i would say either they stuffed something up or they did not know what they were doing so I paid for all the extra time it took them.

Whatever it was I ended up paying $1300 for the install.

No I don't want to talk about it anymore but I think I have learnt my lesson.

I have just read all the posts on your install Adam & I am very sorry to here of your problems. I have been disappointed ever since I pulled out of this bulk buy of the 4.11's a few months ago.
I am very frustrated with the bullshit information that the installers have been feeding you & the icing on the cake was when I read about the so called "TOP GRADE" bearings. I have been in the metal industry for 20 yrs & it is well known by tradesman that you can pretty much set your micrometers with bearings. No bearing company can sell a bearing that is outside designated tolerance standards. eg. up to 50mm in dia. with an allowed tolerance of + 0.000mm - 0.002mm or a total tolerance of 2 thousandths of a mm. The thickness of a piece of paper is 0.1mm or a tenth of a mm.

I was going to install my own & I would have gladly done yours for a hell of a lot less than what these wankers are trying to rip you off for !!!

Once again I am sorry to here about your problems & makes the whole deal seem a bit sour.



brooksy

First - There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the Ashcroft 4.11's they were all perfect. Sorry I even hinted there might be something wrong with them but that was what I was told by the installer to start with.

Thank god for that! You had me worried a bit!

I think all my troubles came from not getting the right person to install them and the lack of knowledge I had about diffs.

Sorry to hear that. At least no-one else will end up with these guys (that read this thread anyway).

Anyone know who the best people are to install the 4.11's in Sydney?

Afetr reading the post on this subect got inspired and we ripped the rear diff out of Disco Dave today to begin the conversion to 4.11s. Had a look at the new pinion and according to the Ashcroft web site, it should have some numbers on the top that relate to the pinion height, and therefore to the shim adjustment needed to get correct gear meshing.

But... the numbers look like they have been written by chimpanzee or elephant on speed, can't read them at all - so will have to rely on trail and error to get it right - ie,m shim, install pinon and carrier, check, remove, adjust shims, instal etc, ect, etc.

Otherwise, so far so good, except one pinion bearing took 1.5 hours to remove. Also pegging the diff for good measure.

This job may take some time.......

Reddo wrote:Afetr reading the post on this subect got inspired and we ripped the rear diff out of Disco Dave today to begin the conversion to 4.11s. Had a look at the new pinion and according to the Ashcroft web site, it should have some numbers on the top that relate to the pinion height, and therefore to the shim adjustment needed to get correct gear meshing.

But... the numbers look like they have been written by chimpanzee or elephant on speed, can't read them at all - so will have to rely on trail and error to get it right - ie,m shim, install pinon and carrier, check, remove, adjust shims, instal etc, ect, etc.

Otherwise, so far so good, except one pinion bearing took 1.5 hours to remove. Also pegging the diff for good measure.

This job may take some time.......

sorry but this pinion height number is not on the 4.11 R & P gears, these instructions refer to stock 3.54's.

the number on the 4.11 pinion is just a number that is used to match the ring gear.

This height dimention is rarly useful anyway and can get very misleading, you are much better off going by the tooth contact patch :


Remember "only the blue is true" anything else is fiction

thanks for the advice - it now makes sense.

Contact with original Rover shim under the main pinion bearing was just a little high on the tooth and so some adjustment was needed.

I can see why diff specialists might charge so much to do this work as it can clearly take some time to get the tooth contact pattern and various bearing pre-loads right! I doubt you would luck it first time very often.

So far the C&P on one diff has been in and out 3 times - taking about 40 minutes per attempt. Should take one fit more to finalise the correct contact pattern on the rear diff. The front should be a lot easier know we know what to do.

If you need some more practise, I have about 3 more you can do.....

JC

Yea it takes time but unlike the ashcroft gears all the 4.11's i've had, have had the pinion height on them, meaning you just get the pinion height right then the preload and move on to the crown wheel, this means no dummy assembling all the time and all have blued perfectly, so i believe the pinion height SHOULD be engraved on the pinion head as it saves hours of work

And yes Reddo the time it takes is huge, unlike the basic fitting of an air locker as i started earlier in this thread

any second hand stuff is bound to make some noise.over time the carrier will distort and this wears the crown a bit.you buy these gears a bolt them in place.if you are lucky your carrier face will run true.this may be so on brand new parts but second hand stuff never will.been there done that with ARB,MAXI DRIVE,and DETRIOT.a carrier not running true plus a crown wheel that is second hand makes for some real good diff tunes.even check the run out of new carriers without the crown to see how it runs, you may get a supprise.they can run out.if so get it trued up in a lathe.the carrier is 2 major parts bolted together so it comes down to the machine work and how good this is to how true it all runs.

..well the 4.11a are in. No probs with the front diff, assembled fine, got the pinion height/gear mesh and pre-load in one go.

Yet to road test as yet another front wheel bearing is stuffed due to water damage. Can't see where it is getting in. Seals are new and look fine, but the rubber/plastic cap over the axle end/drive flange seems to be the culprit.

Perhaps fitting grease nipples will help. That way grease can be stuffed in from time to time hopefully expelling/displacing any water that may be in the hub?

Put some Maxi drive flanges on, Part Number MDE 859. They are weather proof and easy to remove for inspection etc.
I've got some here if you want to have a look...
JC

yeah may check that out. Thanks.

Tested out the 4.11s today and all is good. Just a slight pinion seal leak to attend to at the rear. Funny that's where the new 40 dollar seal went in last time??.

No strange noises at any speed up to 130 kph, no whines that could be heard above the BFGs and gearing now just great. Goes places in LRange 2nd where it took first to go before!

Engine now has serious pulling power. Best mod yet I think!

But will it pull like a big diesel??? Almost time to see. I'll be ready in about 2 weeks...

JC

Reddo wrote:
Otherwise, so far so good, except one pinion bearing took 1.5 hours to remove. Also pegging the diff for good measure.

This job may take some time.......

Just read this post ! How did the diff pegging go ??
I'm getting/got the gear together to do the mod !
Any tips or advice ??

Pegging went well.

Firstly I should acknowledge that the Ashcroft Engineering web site provides some very useful pictures on this topic. Dave is great on info and this is one reason why we bought his 4.11s

The biggest issue is working out where to drill the holes through the casing and making sure they are at right angles to the axis of the pinion.

For this we used a tee square adjusted to match the radius of the crown wheel, that is the distance from the centre of the crown wheel to the centre of the flat that the bearing pad will eventually run on - effectively this is the space from the gear mounting hub/flange (just above the bolt holes) to the outside of the gear wheel. There is slight chamfer on the outermost part of the gear, and this forms the limit of the bearing surface available, ie between the gear mounting flange/hub and the chamfer - and is approx 10mm wide.

Remove the CW and sit the tee square on the top of the cast/machined CW bearing block closest to the CW- that is so it is effectively at the centre of the CW and mark the approx depth/location of the holes on the inside of the diff housing. We then referenced this location, adjusted for radius (using the radius of the CW, and located two points (ie, the holes for tapping and fitting the locating pegs) that are approx 40mm centre to centre apart on the outside of the housing.

There is a need to weld on some flat steel shaped to fit between the cast ribs on the outside of the housing in this place so it covers the marked holes allowing two threads to fit nicely approx 40 mm apart with a nut on top. As said, this plate is fitted and welded between the ribs that are cast on the the outside of the housing and when finished should leave a surface paralell to the pinion axis and at right angles to the CW bearing axis - we used a bit of modified 5mm angle and u can use the machined mounting surface for working out the right angles.

This is fiddly work and a die grinder helps a lot here. Before welding (using low hydrogen rods) pre-heating the housing to dull red in the weld area is essential otherwise the welds will fail due to shrinkage.

Once welded, locate the peg holes on the now 'flat' fillet of steel, drill pilot holes using a drill press taking care to ensure the holes are at 90degree to the plate and the pinion axis. Tap later to suit whatever thread you're using - we used Grade 5 15mm pre-threaded rod starting with 100mm. You cut this down to length later so that once inserted and adjusted, there's just enough height/thread left to allow a nyloc nut to be fitted.

It is necessary to machine down the ends of the thread to fit snugly into stopped holes in the bearing pad (as the thread is too large by itself to fit the bearing pad) or drill and insert suitable dowell/round bar which in turn will fit matching holes in the bearing pad to locate it and allow the thread to be turned to adjust the bearing pad against the CW. Dowells should protrude about 5-8mmmm from the shoulder of the thread, and the pad holes should be stopped at a depth that is suitable for good location and which allows easy rotation - around 5-8mm depending on the thickness of the pad.

The bearing pad was made from 25mm bronze rod, cut in half and shaped to the approx radius of the CW, trial and error is required to get the thickness and shape right to ensure it fits in between the CW and the housing - and u may need to grind a little of the housing away inside, at the narrow end to get the best fit - the pad ends up looking a bit like a banana - perhaps 60mm long and 12-15 mm wide and 8-10 mm or so thick. We found one diff allowed a thicker pad cause the inner casting was slightly different with more clearance to the CW. However, backlash adjustment may also impinge on the space ultimately abvailable and as said, u can grind away a bit of the housing inside if needed - it's 20mm thick here anyway.

We marked the locating holes by installing the CW and adjusting to its approx backlash, placing the shaped bronze pad on the CW with some sticky grease and carefully rotating it to the correct location and then inserted painted rods ends down the pilot holes. Once located, drill the pad to suit the machined or dowelled end of the thread. Cut the thread to length and cut slots in the outside end of the thread for a large screwdriver to fit to turn, and finally tap the holes right thru the welded plate and the diff housing proper to match the threaded bar.

Assemble and once adjusted, thread on some ny-loc nuts to suit the bar and tighten down hard. Rotate and make sure it does not foul. Don't adjust too tight though.

The only issue has been effectively sealing the threads and using silicone on the threads when assembling front diff worked well, but the rear has leaked a bit since. Not sure how to stop this yet but it is not too bad - one or two drip per journey!

I don't want to take out the offending thread as the pad may fall away from the CW, never to be located again. Oh well, it can wait until it's out again and after all, it is a Rover so Toyota and Nissan owners can point the finger at it and snigger wisely .

Cost, threaded bar 30 dollars for a metre length, nyloc nuts to suit 5 dollars, 25mm dia bronze rod 30 dollars for 30cm length. Rest of materials were scrap and had the tap to suit already.

Time 2-4 hours installed the 4.11s at the same time.

THANKS A HEAP FOR THE INFO ! THAT WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR ME .
HAVE SEEN THE ASHCROFT PICS , VERY HELPFUL ALSO . SHOULD HAVE IT DONE BY THE WEEKEND IF ALL GOES TO PLAN !!
THANKS AGAIN CHRIS

WELL DONE LADS,

Good to see someone having a go.

JC