Outer Limits 4x4 Board

for me it would be

Std engines no cam's, worked this that or no other.
TB42 Carb
TD42 No Turbo

33in tires - from an approved tires listing - no complaining then. Also keeps cost down, and open to more people.

2in lift measured - no "I bought a 2inch lift - but it lifted it 4inches"...

LWB or SWB - your choice but no cutups.

Winchbar - open

Winch Low Mount only - this is cause most punters already have them, and they are cheaper to buy.

Rear Bar open.

Cage - Yes - to CCDA specs


there is more, but Im building a server

chpd 80 wrote:I know were your coming from with carbies, but they just suck with anything to do with 4wding!!

If anyone has any ideas on how efi and turbo diesels could be kept fair and restricted, and then able to race would be great, cause I;m sure Darren is not anti efi and Turbo, He just wants to keep it fair.

What happens if you allow only the stock throttle body on EFI? is that enough to keep it fairly limited? I am just trying to think of things that are easy to measure from the outside.

bogged wrote:
33in tires - from an approved tires listing - no complaining then. Also keeps cost down, and open to more people.

2in lift measured - no "I bought a 2inch lift - but it lifted it 4inches"...

Winch Low Mount only - this is cause most punters already have them, and they are cheaper to buy.

the control tyre idea will work well. and keep the cost right down. cooper support A1GP , khumo support HQ racing ect. this keeps sponsorship up and costs down. i have spoken to a few people in the know about this and it WILL work.

the suspension issue you mention is another great argument for controlled equiptment

low mount winches, are you on drugs!! if not you need some

as for the toyota thing, wont happen not while im trying to organise something, we need a level playing field, and as for EFI ect no no no no.
I know it wont suit everyone but a line must be drawn . some people may hate it but thats the way it is. If it is opened up to much . then rules will be pushed might as well go and race trophy class. this 'hard' approach is the only way to get this class to work if not im just waisting my time.

krimnl wrote: this 'hard' approach is the only way to get this class to work if not im just waisting my time.

I agree. 1342974%

krimnl wrote:low mount winches, are you on drugs!! if not you need some

well considering that out of 250 members of our club, theres probably 5 IF that high mounts, and one of them is on Ossies wrecked ute! also think of the ratio of HMounts to low out there already.. Also the amount of low mounts available for FUCK all money these days NEW..

you also need to work out of your aiming at people out there who already have rigs, or people with plenty of money who will go out and start from scratch with a new rig. If your going for them already owning a car, then it will be harder...

chimpboy wrote:

chpd 80 wrote:I know were your coming from with carbies, but they just suck with anything to do with 4wding!!

If anyone has any ideas on how efi and turbo diesels could be kept fair and restricted, and then able to race would be great, cause I;m sure Darren is not anti efi and Turbo, He just wants to keep it fair.

What happens if you allow only the stock throttle body on EFI? is that enough to keep it fairly limited? I am just trying to think of things that are easy to measure from the outside.

It just wont work...


the TB42 Vs the TB42 E, efi motor just go heaps harder, regardless!

hey daz i like the sound of this class, and if it does happen i would love to compete in it

chimpboy wrote:
chpd 80 wrote:
I know were your coming from with carbies, but they just suck with anything to do with 4wding!!

If anyone has any ideas on how efi and turbo diesels could be kept fair and restricted, and then able to race would be great, cause I;m sure Darren is not anti efi and Turbo, He just wants to keep it fa

ir.

What happens if you allow only the stock throttle body on EFI? is that enough to keep it fairly limited? I am just trying to think of things that are easy to measure from the outside.

It just wont work

...

Yeah Fairenuf

AJ wrote:

nastytroll wrote:being ute or full body makes no difference if some one wants to win, panel damage is a very distant 2nd

But 3 different wheelbase lengths doesnt make it a control category. Pick one and run only with that. I'd suggest LWB wagon to keep costs down and skills at the forefront.

LWB wagon and ute are the same wheel base.

turps wrote:

AJ wrote:

nastytroll wrote:being ute or full body makes no difference if some one wants to win, panel damage is a very distant 2nd

But 3 different wheelbase lengths doesnt make it a control category. Pick one and run only with that. I'd suggest LWB wagon to keep costs down and skills at the forefront.

LWB wagon and ute are the same wheel base.

Doh! I shoulda known that Dunno why I thought the utes were MWB Too much OBC spectating?

any comments about the nitros oxide suggestion.

krimnl wrote:any comments about the nitros oxide suggestion.

Compulsory or banned????

AJ wrote:

krimnl wrote:any comments about the nitros oxide suggestion.

Compulsory or banned????

as an option , like the A1GP has the powerboost button , we could have nos!


I had a long chat in my office with a major tyre importer today. He was excited by what i had to offer him and basically ask where could he sign up,
i told him we are just starting to work out the class and would be happy to hear what they had to offer.

krimnl wrote:i told him we are just starting to work out the class and would be happy to hear what they had to offer.

Great news Mr.. had a good discussion with Ossie tonight at committee meeting...

Beers to you for the effort and foresight to think of a cheap entry level class.. Most cant afford the $50-100k+ for OBC etc... but under $10k, would be fuckin stunning.

Your talking about running this class AT other events - correct? Do you think these rigs will struggle to the point of breaking things regularly running same courses as these other rigs? this will cause $$$$ issues...

Or are you thinking of possibly a 4 round series on different weekends.. better for competitors, possibly closer racing, better spectators, but then again more costs, more admin, more marshalls..

What size tire are you thinking of, 33/285's ?? Are you thinking MT's only?? No Boggers, simex's, claws etc??

LWB/SWB?

What are your class thoughts at this stage? after some discussion, as to specs, regs, mods etc...

If this takes off (and I think it will be HUGE) you could introduce a second higher class running 4.5 GUs. These are pretty affordable these days too.

AJ wrote:If this takes off (and I think it will be HUGE) you could introduce a second higher class running 4.5 GUs. These are pretty affordable these days too.

Nissan Cup Racing.. All nissans in different classes, and then get nissan to back it all...

just a suggestion, instead of stipulating a 2" lift or a lift size, just set a maximum vehicle roof height @ 15psi. that would increase the range available to all competitors, eg. 2"lift/2" body on 33's or 3"lift & 35's . . . . .
otherwise there is waaaay to much grey area. ( i have a 2" lift but the springs are 650mm long free lenght and mega soft, it would easily fit the rules and flex like a MOFO). setting a roof height allows for all types of combinations of lift / BL / tyre size & type. and its easy to check!!!!

What are the differences between utes and wagons. Weight and cost. Utes are way more expensive and weigh heaps less and are also less valnerable to panel damage.

Why did I chop my wagon down. To lose weight and to get rid of panel damage. Why didnt I just buy a ute. Because they cost too much.

I think you should allow people to do the chop. It cost me less than a grand to chop and paint.

Also every body has a set of 35's. Allow upto 35's but must be a standard mud tyre. ie no ceterpedes, claws, krawlers, creepys, trepadors, silverstones blah blah blah.

Lockers or no Lockers. Maybe see who signs up and get the majority to decide.

What are the differences between Winch, Outback style vehicles and the standard 4wdriver :-

Coil overs $10 000 Plus
24volt Highmount $500 - $1000 Plus
Free spool $2200 Plus
Bead locks $2000 Plus
Race tyres $2500 Plus
Turbo, V8, Engine mods $5000 - $50 000 plus
A Frames $1000 Plus
Lights $4000 Plus
Kevlar, Fibre glass panels $1000 plus
Winch Rope $500 plus. Note ( rope is a safety issue over steel cable )
Roll cage $1000 plus. Note ( This is a safety issue ).


This is an estimate on prices only. To be successful this is the sort of stuff that needs to be removed to make an exciting standard class.

Who ever is interested in stepping up to timed events would already have lockers, lift kits, 35's and an eagerness for more adventures and challenges.

LudaCris

1MadEngineer wrote:just a suggestion, instead of stipulating a 2" lift or a lift size, just set a maximum vehicle roof height @ 15psi. that would increase the range available to all competitors, eg. 2"lift/2" body on 33's or 3"lift & 35's . . . . .
otherwise there is waaaay to much grey area. ( i have a 2" lift but the springs are 650mm long free lenght and mega soft, it would easily fit the rules and flex like a MOFO). setting a roof height allows for all types of combinations of lift / BL / tyre size & type. and its easy to check!!!!

be difficult to maintain as the weight of a shorty would be different to wagon,

Also got to consider the amount of weight in the vehicle also.

ludacris wrote:Also every body has a set of 35's

I would disagree. many ordinary club members out there would only run 285's or 33's (out of 250 in our Nissan Club, probably only 4-8 have 34's or bigger), and thats why I ask who this is aimed at - people who already have a daily driver on 31/33's or people who will build up.


I would also say no lockers - to keep costs down, average punter - 2 lockers fitted $2500-3000....

bogged wrote:

ludacris wrote:Also every body has a set of 35's

I would disagree. many ordinary club members out there would only run 285's or 33's (out of 250 in our Nissan Club, probably only 4-8 have 34's or bigger), and thats why I ask who this is aimed at - people who already have a daily driver on 31/33's or people who will build up.


I would also say no lockers - to keep costs down, average punter - 2 lockers fitted $2500-3000....

Hey Bogged read the whole thread, this has been covered
this is not going to be crash and bash , or shitbox racing, and is still going to be 10K plus to build a car.
still this is cheaper than the $50k plus that is being spent now and at that money its still basic. most cars are now over $100k

My 2c

Why stipulate ARB lockers? Why not just say that locking or locked diffs and/or traction control (?) are permitted. That way if people want to go the cheap bastard option and weld the rear they can. Also - people have the choice of ARBs, Detroits, Prolocker, etc., and maybe even traction control (haultech?).

Also - there should be a clause added which specifically states that brakes must act on all four wheels and no additional, individual/fiddle brakes can be used. Saying brakes must be as std doesn't necessarily stop people from adding additional fiddle brake systems.

I like the idea of stipulating a max. roof height and a max tyre size, and letting people do whatever lift combo they want. Might make things interesting seeing what works better.

I don't see why TD's can't be included with a restrictor just before the turbo intake - e.g. like in the WRC - 32mm restrictor immediately before compressor intake. Quick and easy to pull a hose off and check it is there before scrutineering. Could even get a machine shop to make the only approved version, and sell them to competitors (like the control tyre).

ISUZUROVER wrote:My 2c

Why stipulate ARB lockers? Why not just say that locking or locked diffs and/or traction control (?) are permitted. That way if people want to go the cheap bastard option and weld the rear they can. Also - people have the choice of ARBs, Detroits, Prolocker, etc., and maybe even traction control (haultech?).

Also - there should be a clause added which specifically states that brakes must act on all four wheels and no additional, individual/fiddle brakes can be used. Saying brakes must be as std doesn't necessarily stop people from adding additional fiddle brake systems.

I like the idea of stipulating a max. roof height and a max tyre size, and letting people do whatever lift combo they want. Might make things interesting seeing what works better.

I don't see why TD's can't be included with a restrictor just before the turbo intake - e.g. like in the WRC - 32mm restrictor immediately before compressor intake. Quick and easy to pull a hose off and check it is there before scrutineering. Could even get a machine shop to make the only approved version, and sell them to competitors (like the control tyre).

lockers i think will end up open. no advantage on any other type of locker over the airlocker. it just comes down to price. it works like a group buy thing, the more purchased the cheaper they become.

tyres will be controlled this is a great sponsorship thing and group buy aswell.

as for turbo . NO . no point bringing it up people will push the rules. it cant happen . cant please everyone. but thats the way it is.


I have had international intrest in this aswell. will keep you all posted what happens with that

krimnl wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:My 2c

Why stipulate ARB lockers? Why not just say that locking or locked diffs and/or traction control (?) are permitted. That way if people want to go the cheap bastard option and weld the rear they can. Also - people have the choice of ARBs, Detroits, Prolocker, etc., and maybe even traction control (haultech?).

Also - there should be a clause added which specifically states that brakes must act on all four wheels and no additional, individual/fiddle brakes can be used. Saying brakes must be as std doesn't necessarily stop people from adding additional fiddle brake systems.

I like the idea of stipulating a max. roof height and a max tyre size, and letting people do whatever lift combo they want. Might make things interesting seeing what works better.

I don't see why TD's can't be included with a restrictor just before the turbo intake - e.g. like in the WRC - 32mm restrictor immediately before compressor intake. Quick and easy to pull a hose off and check it is there before scrutineering. Could even get a machine shop to make the only approved version, and sell them to competitors (like the control tyre).

lockers i think will end up open. no advantage on any other type of locker over the airlocker. it just comes down to price. it works like a group buy thing, the more purchased the cheaper they become.

tyres will be controlled this is a great sponsorship thing and group buy aswell.

as for turbo . NO . no point bringing it up people will push the rules. it cant happen . cant please everyone. but thats the way it is.


I have had international intrest in this aswell. will keep you all posted what happens with that

X2.. agreed!

you just cant run standard tb42 carby motors against a TB42E or TD42. the turbo only has to be spooling to make a difference let alone boost. EFI motors just go harder. they have to draw the line somewhere. i can understand where the TD42 owners are coming from. but it just wouldnt be a fair competition, its not an open class!

sounds to me that people are confused

Krimnl needs to post up some clear details! because everyone had put in there 2c it has become unclear on what is actually happning here.

this is still a competition event, it needs to be said clearly. the idea is to run a competitive but controlled class with REDUCED costs. gives us a chance to be competitive without having coilivers at 2k each and 30k worth of motor. obviosly there is standards, cage, highmount, etc..


so the competition would be extremely close as the vehicles will be pretty much identicle other than colour. this means every mistake is crucial. just because the vehicles entered are restricted or limited in height or power etc doesnt mean this is a touring class.

its no different than entering the trophy class except you are paying fark all to prepare your truck.

TEAMRPM wrote:

krimnl wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:My 2c

Why stipulate ARB lockers? Why not just say that locking or locked diffs and/or traction control (?) are permitted. That way if people want to go the cheap bastard option and weld the rear they can. Also - people have the choice of ARBs, Detroits, Prolocker, etc., and maybe even traction control (haultech?).

Also - there should be a clause added which specifically states that brakes must act on all four wheels and no additional, individual/fiddle brakes can be used. Saying brakes must be as std doesn't necessarily stop people from adding additional fiddle brake systems.

I like the idea of stipulating a max. roof height and a max tyre size, and letting people do whatever lift combo they want. Might make things interesting seeing what works better.

I don't see why TD's can't be included with a restrictor just before the turbo intake - e.g. like in the WRC - 32mm restrictor immediately before compressor intake. Quick and easy to pull a hose off and check it is there before scrutineering. Could even get a machine shop to make the only approved version, and sell them to competitors (like the control tyre).

lockers i think will end up open. no advantage on any other type of locker over the airlocker. it just comes down to price. it works like a group buy thing, the more purchased the cheaper they become.

tyres will be controlled this is a great sponsorship thing and group buy aswell.

as for turbo . NO . no point bringing it up people will push the rules. it cant happen . cant please everyone. but thats the way it is.


I have had international intrest in this aswell. will keep you all posted what happens with that

X2.. agreed!

you just cant run standard tb42 carby motors against a TB42E or TD42. the turbo only has to be spooling to make a difference let alone boost. EFI motors just go harder. they have to draw the line somewhere. i can understand where the TD42 owners are coming from. but it just wouldnt be a fair competition, its not an open class!

sounds to me that people are confused

Krimnl needs to post up some clear details! because everyone had put in there 2c it has become unclear on what is actually happning here.

this is still a competition event, it needs to be said clearly. the idea is to run a competitive but controlled class with REDUCED costs. gives us a chance to be competitive without having coilivers at 2k each and 30k worth of motor. obviosly there is standards, cage, highmount, etc..


so the competition would be extremely close as the vehicles will be pretty much identicle other than colour. this means every mistake is crucial. just because the vehicles entered are restricted or limited in height or power etc doesnt mean this is a touring class.

its no different than entering the trophy class except you are paying fark all to prepare your truck.

correct, go to the top of the class.

TEAMRPM wrote:Krimnl needs to post up some clear details! because everyone had put in there 2c it has become unclear on what is actually happning here.

exactly.. said this about 10 posts ago.

with all discussion, who cares - this is his baby, he makes the rules, but just post and update of what you are proposing at this point in time now.

Krim, love the idea. Has great merits. to many of the posts here are rubbish, but thats the joy of open forums ay! Right, from this side of the ditch I agree with many of the points, heres my rundown:

GQ shorty / wagon or ute (must be what compliance plate states ie no cars cut to utes) - agree
4.2 carby motors or td42 NO turbos at all - agree
exhaust open ie extractors ect - agree
no efi or forced induction - agree
no NOS or gas on diesel - agree
auto or manual allowed - agree
std type winch bar, supplied by ARB ect – any front bar system is fine at the end of the day.
std warn winch , 12 volt with 6hp motor – sortof agree, I think any low-mount 24volt or 12 volt winch is fine with a std motor (keeps costs down), But the prob is that the low mounts are mind-numbingly slow. Could only work if Warn gave a really special deal – but weekend warriors mostly can afford a lowmount. Its an issue this one.
2" suspension lift . 1 shocker per corner in original mounts – lift all they want as long as roof height is not exceeded
2 " body lift – same as shocks
controlled 35" tyre , (ie pro comp , simex . whoever gives the best deal) – 33 or 35 as long as roof height not exceeded, but, I do agree on having one supplier, here it would be Simex as 1st option, then Maxxis as #2 then whatever
4.6 diff gears with twin arb lockers\ - agree with lockers but should be if want and of any brand unless super deal done, don’t know enough about diffs to give input on ratios
guards cut to fit bigger tyres, the rest of body to remain standard - agree
std steel panels only - agree
trays are to full trays.( no buggy backs) - agree
interior to remain std except for fitting of 6 point cage and aftermarket seats allowed – agree with properly mounted harnesses of course
door trims ect must remain in the cars. – agree (for legal reasons)
GQ diffs to remain – agree, but is it possible to know if they have GU stuff inside? Again I don’t know this stuff.
steering box is open. - agree
all suspension arms are to be factory lengths, laminating is allowed must retain original type bushes – agree, but can be of any brand as long as length is std
brakes to remain std. - agree

I like one guy who posted to measure off the roof height, very clever, could easily make a jig that fits over roof and settles on the gutter mounts then a tape measure from ground to that saves a lot of time and agro over suspension and body lift.

GQ shorty / wagon or ute (must be what compliance plate states ie no cars cut to utes) - agree
4.2 carby motors or td42 NO turbos at all - agree
exhaust open ie extractors ect - agree
no efi or forced induction - agree
no NOS or gas on diesel - agree
auto or manual allowed - agree
std type winch bar, supplied by ARB ect – any front bar system is fine at the end of the day.
std warn winch , 12 volt with 6hp motor – agree, keeps recovery's even
2" suspension lift . 1 shocker per corner in original mounts – agree i like the idea of limiting lift
2 " body lift – again level field, agree
controlled 35" tyre , (ie pro comp , simex . whoever gives the best deal) – id prefer 33's so an agree goes here
4.6 diff gears with twin arb lockers\ - i like the thought of changing ratios, and if everyone is the same it shouldnt be a problem, also if we do a class buy on lockers it will be excellent
guards cut to fit bigger tyres, the rest of body to remain standard - agree
std steel panels only - agree
trays are to full trays.( no buggy backs) - agree
interior to remain std except for fitting of 6 point cage and aftermarket seats allowed – agree
door trims ect must remain in the cars. – agree
GQ diffs to remain – agree.
steering box is open. - agree
all suspension arms are to be factory lengths, laminating is allowed must retain original type bushes – agree
brakes to remain std. - agree

i think this class could be a major hit, i am curious though, are competitors allowed rock sliders and side guards? at a small outlay it would greatly reduce panel damage, and again opens up the group buy aspect of having a whole class getting them.

krimnl wrote: tyres will be controlled this is a great sponsorship thing and group buy aswell.

Wasn't arguing against this at all - tyres are one of the biggest expenses - and having a control tyre at a good price will be a good idea. Was just agreeing with 1mad's post about specifying an overall height, rather than max height of BL/SL.

Another thought - will need to be a clause about not modding the control tyre - siping/cutting, etc.

Also a rule about steel shot/water in tyres???

I think warlords post pretty much says it all, as fair a playing field as you would get. On the tyre issue if these vehicles are going to be running same tracks as the current full comp trucks then you would definetly want to run a simex type tyre to give them the best chance to drive the tracks. If I knew i could transform my Patrol into competitive vehicle for a bit over $10,000 then I would definetly consider running in this event, I just might have to wait a year or two (Damn $$$), so I hope it gets off the ground and becomes a success.
Keep up the good work Krimnl.
Steve