Outer Limits 4x4 Board

matt did laminova give you any heat absorbption figure for the cores? I tried getting 'REAL' info from them but they were very non-comittal, so we steered away from them.

1MadEngineer wrote:matt did laminova give you any heat absorbption figure for the cores? I tried getting 'REAL' info from them but they were very non-comittal, so we steered away from them.

No I never asked I'm affraid.

Jacked wrote:would be better making some sort of plenium chanmber but i would think the gains would be minimal. better of spending your cash on pump mods i would think

What he describes IS making some sort of plenum chamber.
and i doubt you would get much in the way of pump mods for the $100 it would cost to mod the manifold in that way.

I have a general question regarding IC's.

My understanding is a diesel engine flows more air than a petrol engine of the equivalent capacity?

If the above is true does this mean that a diesel IC needs to have more cooling capacity than a petrol?

Is this only true at equivalent revs?

If a petrol engine makes its power and torque higher in the rev range than does this mean that they may very well flow similar quantities of air?

Sorry this isn't directly related to the Laminova cores but definately relevant to IC capacity.

Dazza

azzad wrote:I have a general question regarding IC's.

Does a diesel engine flow more air than a petrol engine of the equivalent capacity?

If the above is true does this mean that a diesel IC needs to have more cooling capacity than a petrol?

Sorry this isn't directly related to the Laminova cores but definately relevant to IC capacity.

Dazza

Yes, overall diesels will flow more air. A petrol motor will only flow an equivalent amount of air at WOT as there is no restriction in the intake (throttle butterfly) at that time.

I spose if you look at it THAT way, then yes an intercooler on a dieselwould need to be better/more efficient.

Is there a difference in exhaust temps between diesel and petty?

Which would then effect the IC capacities between the 2?

Dazza

azzad wrote:Is there a difference in exhaust temps between diesel and petty?

petrols run hotter, and it doesnt matter. high temps in diesels are fatal.

What I meant was if the petrol exhaust is hotter the intake air through the turbo will pick up more heat.

Therefore requiring more IC capacity.

Dazza

azzad wrote:What I meant was if the petrol exhaust is hotter the intake air through the turbo will pick up more heat.

Therefore requiring more IC capacity.

Dazza

Most of the heat in the compressed air actually comes from the compressing itself not the exhaust heat. When you compress the air a by product is heat the more compression/boost more heat.

Heat transfer through the turbo from the exhausts is not the issue.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

azzad wrote:What I meant was if the petrol exhaust is hotter the intake air through the turbo will pick up more heat.

Therefore requiring more IC capacity.

Dazza

Most of the heat in the compressed air actually comes from the compressing itself not the exhaust heat. When you compress the air a by product is heat the more compression/boost more heat.

Heat transfer through the turbo from the exhausts is not the issue.

we could get picky here. The amount of heat doesn't, the temperature does.
the temp rises because you have X heat in Y space befor the compression. after the compression you have X heat Z space, (Z=1/4Y)
because the heat is in a smaller space the temp rises.

this is why we compress A/C gas to remove heat from it, and then let it expand so it will remove heat from air.

Didnt think of that; overlooking the obvious again.

What is a typical boost pressure for a petrol?

Dazza

azzad wrote:Didnt think of that; overlooking the obvious again.

What is a typical boost pressure for a petrol?

Dazza

6-7psi from most factory turboed cars, although i'm sure there are 15psi plus factory systems around now.

Petrol/turbo is a lot more fiddly to set up right compared to diesel, where you can basically just put a turbo on and drive without any issues (no compression/spark/timing/fueling headaches).

Thanks for the feedback; sorry about the slight of topic.

This was all leading to the possible use of the Subbie w2a IC.

Thanks
Dazza

brad-chevlux wrote:

Jacked wrote:would be better making some sort of plenium chanmber but i would think the gains would be minimal. better of spending your cash on pump mods i would think

What he describes IS making some sort of plenum chamber.
and i doubt you would get much in the way of pump mods for the $100 it would cost to mod the manifold in that way.

technically it is a plenum although a much smaller, would be better doing one much larger, say 2 inch on the side of the manifold and 2-3 inchs taller. similar to the bmw photo's mayb not as large though. that way you have "stored boost pressure" to improve responsiveness and even flow to improve power by cylinder equalise-ation (dont know if thats even a word)

i would think the one pictured would help flow but i dont think it would be something you would notice by "seat of your pants dyno"

if you going to chop your manifold up might as well go as large as possible,

ehh

Well the new end plates are in 10 of them to make up 5 generic GQ-GU intercoolers. Tomorrow I pick up another run of tubes, the last 6 left the building on Monday from the first run of 50.

Two more flanges to collect as well, MKII will have clearence for a ratchet spanner, another 3 to follow is they work.

Splitters and end caps we have in stock.

So time for a small production run, as soon as Dzltec's 8 core is finished.

Oh Oh Oh

The new flanges and more conventional as Awill4x4 came up with a great idea that is also simple to reproduce, yet still allows for the air to be flowed in from the intercooler. The wall thickness is slightly less to allow for a ratchet spanner to be used.



Also picked up the 2 mock feeds for the BMW that will fit in to the laser cut end plate, just one for each end as this is only a model to check the fit. This will tell us if the angle to meet the throttle bodies is correct as well as the spacing. Circled in the 3rd photo of the type of intercooler we are replacing. The final onse will have holes in the center







As you can see the one above has a flat face with angled feed where as ours will have an angled face as you can see on the mock endplates below.



All this just for a simple model to see if it will fit but hey they Americans are paying for it as well as the express shipping

Helping the economey all I can

You could also use allen head bolts instead of hex heads. The DTS kits use allen head bolts on their cross over pipe as you can't fit hex head bolts in.

Better organise a dyno run for mine

busman wrote:You could also use allen head bolts instead of hex heads. The DTS kits use allen head bolts on their cross over pipe as you can't fit hex head bolts in.

Better organise a dyno run for mine

Allen caps need hight to clear the allen key and the intercooler sits over the front two so your having to access them from behind something the DTS crossover pipe does not interfere with as much. I used Marin's old DTS to work out the flange hight for clearance to get the 4 bolts in and out.

Dzltec's is almost there



Awill4x4 has cut the end plates to match and blended then in to give the best possible flow.



3mm plate on the bottom with swage lines all tacked in place, the top will get 4mm to stop any ballooning with the large boost Dzltec intends to run.

got any ideas on cost as of yet?

GU-ish wrote:got any ideas on cost as of yet?

For complete kit ready to bolt in heat exchanger pump and all, or just an intercooler ready to bolt on, or just the parts and you weld your own? (latter not recommended for the inexperienced)

all 3 costs would be great if you keen to post up, depending on price could be keen

Kit form without cores $670 with cores $1070.

Water splitters $100 a pair.

Until me and Awill4x4 have fabricated the bolt on one I can't give an exact price. I'm going to do a run of 5 so Awill4x4 can replicate a lot of the pieces.
Fabrication is not so much about materials but labour. So until Awill4x4 puts one together I prefer to sit on the fence a little. I would expect to be no more than $1700 including splitters. But hoping for less.

Heat exchanger such as Marin's $400 approx, Telstar Rad new with custom end tanks.
Davies Craig pump I would search the net or give Bursons, Repco, ect a call.

So if you go with hose tails and no bling, I would expect to have one installed and working if you fitted it yourself for no more than $2500.

As you can see the costs soon add up.

Well the count is 3 now

Busman
Benhl
BASSYK

So just 2 kits from this run left

brad-chevlux wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

azzad wrote:What I meant was if the petrol exhaust is hotter the intake air through the turbo will pick up more heat.

Therefore requiring more IC capacity.

Dazza

Most of the heat in the compressed air actually comes from the compressing itself not the exhaust heat. When you compress the air a by product is heat the more compression/boost more heat.

Heat transfer through the turbo from the exhausts is not the issue.

we could get picky here. The amount of heat doesn't, the temperature does.
the temp rises because you have X heat in Y space befor the compression. after the compression you have X heat Z space, (Z=1/4Y)
because the heat is in a smaller space the temp rises.

this is why we compress A/C gas to remove heat from it, and then let it expand so it will remove heat from air.

Compressing A/C gas heats the gas but forms the gas to a liquid, the job of the condensor is to cool the A/C gas, the controlled vaporization of liquid into the evaporator is what takes the heat from the air.
I wouldn't suggest leaning against the high pressure (liquid)side of a running A/C system.
Matt is correct the heat is due to the compression, it's how a diesel works, high compression causes heat, diesel is injected into the hot air mixture, hence the need for glow plugs and why worn out low comp diesel engines are hard to start.
Another example is the supercharger, no exhaust heat enters the supercharger yet they all produce high air outlet temps. They don't call EATON superchargers Heatons for nothing.

Plenums don't store boost, the throttle blade is before the plenum so there is vacuum in the plenum at idle and cruise. A plenum creates higher cylinder pressures as the mass of air, once accellerated continues to charge into the cylinder at increased levels, it does when under boost give each intake runner a high speed column of air to feed from.

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:

brad-chevlux wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

azzad wrote:What I meant was if the petrol exhaust is hotter the intake air through the turbo will pick up more heat.

Therefore requiring more IC capacity.

Dazza

Most of the heat in the compressed air actually comes from the compressing itself not the exhaust heat. When you compress the air a by product is heat the more compression/boost more heat.

Heat transfer through the turbo from the exhausts is not the issue.

we could get picky here. The amount of heat doesn't, the temperature does.
the temp rises because you have X heat in Y space befor the compression. after the compression you have X heat Z space, (Z=1/4Y)
because the heat is in a smaller space the temp rises.

this is why we compress A/C gas to remove heat from it, and then let it expand so it will remove heat from air.

Compressing A/C gas heats the gas but forms the gas to a liquid, the job of the condensor is to cool the A/C gas, the controlled vaporization of liquid into the evaporator is what takes the heat from the air.
I wouldn't suggest leaning against the high pressure (liquid)side of a running A/C system.
Matt is correct the heat is due to the compression, it's how a diesel works, high compression causes heat, diesel is injected into the hot air mixture, hence the need for glow plugs and why worn out low comp diesel engines are hard to start.
Another example is the supercharger, no exhaust heat enters the supercharger yet they all produce high air outlet temps. They don't call EATON superchargers Heatons for nothing.

Joel

I disagree with that

Which bit?

It's a simplistic statement about glow plugs but the theory is correct, the glow(heat) aids the heating caused from compression, hence the term compression ignition.

Joel

Joel, i think he means you are suggesting glow plugs are used during normal operation, not just start up. Just a different take on what you have stated