Outer Limits 4x4 Board

1MadEngineer wrote:

guzzla wrote: You can calculate and graph it as much as you like, but pushing a loaded wheelbarrow with your arms in different positions will prove beyond doubt that my example is 100% correct - try it for yourself.

your comparison is similar to a 2" lift compared to a 10" lift...... have a REAL think about it! get your wheelbarrow take the tub off it, push it in the normal way, then flip it over so the wood handle are now on top of the axle..... it will feel exactly the same. Hands in the same position! as this simulates the mounting point on the chassis, which is the common! NOT a variable. Or do you have hydraulic suspension??

Take the loaded wheel barrow and push it up a gutter with your arms straight (wheel barrow level) than push it up the gutter with your arms bent (wheel barrow pointing down) it'll climb the gutter easier when the barrow is level than when the barrow arms are angled down into the bottom corner of the gutter
same result with a flip arm the arms become level so climb easier

SHANE055 wrote:

1MadEngineer wrote:

guzzla wrote: You can calculate and graph it as much as you like, but pushing a loaded wheelbarrow with your arms in different positions will prove beyond doubt that my example is 100% correct - try it for yourself.

your comparison is similar to a 2" lift compared to a 10" lift...... have a REAL think about it! get your wheelbarrow take the tub off it, push it in the normal way, then flip it over so the wood handle are now on top of the axle..... it will feel exactly the same. Hands in the same position! as this simulates the mounting point on the chassis, which is the common! NOT a variable. Or do you have hydraulic suspension??

Take the loaded wheel barrow and push it up a gutter with your arms straight (wheel barrow level) than push it up the gutter with your arms bent (wheel barrow pointing down) it'll climb the gutter easier when the barrow is level than when the barrow arms are angled down into the bottom corner of the gutter
same result with a flip arm the arms become level so climb easier

hahahaa a 1 1/2 year old grave dig and you still don't get it.

I get it
You're trying to sell your product

Having the wheelbarrow arms in the 'low' position is the same effect as lowering the radius arms at the chassis end.

SHANE055 wrote:I get it

No, I don't think you do get it.

Your analogy of lowering the handle end of the wheel barrow arms is not the same as simply flipping the radius arms.

With flipped radius arms, the chassis (handle) end of the arms are in the same place whether normal or flipped.

In your wheel barrow analogy, the handle end of the wheel barrow arms are lowered, making it easier, but this does not happen with flipped radius arms, unless the chassis end of the radius arms are also lowered away from the chassis as dogbreath mentions, which they are not when just flipping them.

The componenet we are looking at here, is the diff, or wheels, and the movement which the diff and wheels go through during suspension cycling.

A radius arm, for all effective purposes can be considered a straight link from the chassis, to the centreline of the diff. Since that is what we are controling the movement of. Agree?

So the only factors that matter here, is the distance between the chassis mount, and the centreline of the diff, and the angle between the chassis (horizontal), and the centre of the diff.

This gives us our arc of movement.

If you change either the distance, or the angle, your suspension movement will be altered.

If your diff moves forward at all when you flip your radius arm, then you have increased the length between the chassis mount, and the centreline of the diff. And this new length, will change the angle of suspension cycle, which will alter the distance the diff moves forward during uptravel.

It has absolutely nothing to do witht he angle of the radius arm to the chassis. Rather, simply the effective angle between the chassis (horizontaly) and the imaginary line bwteen the chassis mount and the centreline of the diff.

To change this angle, you need to either drop your chassis mount, or lengthen your radius arm, or raise your diff. Nothing else will change the arc.

It's been covered

SimonInAustralia wrote:

SHANE055 wrote:I get it

No, I don't think you do get it.

Your analogy of lowering the handle end of the wheel barrow arms is not the same as simply flipping the radius arms.

With flipped radius arms, the chassis (handle) end of the arms are in the same place whether normal or flipped.

In your wheel barrow analogy, the handle end of the wheel barrow arms are lowered, making it easier, but this does not happen with flipped radius arms, unless the chassis end of the radius arms are also lowered away from the chassis as dogbreath mentions, which they are not when just flipping them.

The important factor is the angle of the arm, if you lower the chassis mount the arm becomes flatter, same if you flip the arm the mounting point on the dif becomes higher so the arm comes closer to flat.

So because the diff is travelling in a fixed ark set by the arm if the arm is angled down than the dif has to come forward to come up, if the arm is flat than the diff will move back to come up.

So if the diff is trying to push forward to travel up when pushed up against a rock than it will be trying to push the vehicle back against the driveline which is trying to push the vehicle forward.

SHANE055 wrote:The important factor is the angle of the arm, if you lower the chassis mount the arm becomes flatter, same if you flip the arm the mounting point on the dif becomes higher so the arm comes closer to flat.

No, the important factor is the angle between the chassis mount and the centre of the axle/wheel.

That is what sets the arc that the diff travels in.

It is shown in the drawings above.

Flipping the arms does not change this.

That is what others are trying to make you see as well, but obviously there is no point, as you will not beleive it. Oh well, doesn't really matter to me if you can't see what is actually happening, carry on.

SHANE055 wrote:

SimonInAustralia wrote:

SHANE055 wrote:I get it

No, I don't think you do get it.

Your analogy of lowering the handle end of the wheel barrow arms is not the same as simply flipping the radius arms.

With flipped radius arms, the chassis (handle) end of the arms are in the same place whether normal or flipped.

In your wheel barrow analogy, the handle end of the wheel barrow arms are lowered, making it easier, but this does not happen with flipped radius arms, unless the chassis end of the radius arms are also lowered away from the chassis as dogbreath mentions, which they are not when just flipping them.

The important factor is the angle of the arm, if you lower the chassis mount the arm becomes flatter, same if you flip the arm the mounting point on the dif becomes higher so the arm comes closer to flat.

So because the diff is travelling in a fixed ark set by the arm if the arm is angled down than the dif has to come forward to come up, if the arm is flat than the diff will move back to come up.

So if the diff is trying to push forward to travel up when pushed up against a rock than it will be trying to push the vehicle back against the driveline which is trying to push the vehicle forward.

If the diff is in the same position, and connected to the chassis in the same position, then the arc is the same. The forward component of the diff's motion as the suspension cycles is exactly the same.

The only way to change this, is to drop the chassis end mount(Drop boxes), raise the diff (less suspension lift), or increase the distance between chassis mount and diff centreline. (Longer radius arm).

flipping the radius arm to the top of the diff does absolutely nothing, if the diff stays in the same spot. If the diff moves forward slightly, you have increased the distance between the chassis mount, and the diff centreline, which will reduce the forward movement of the diff, but only by a very small amount.

some great info in this thread i now have a much better understanding of how a flip arm works and am keen to flip the arms on my 80s thanx

josh80 wrote:some great info in this thread i now have a much better understanding of how a flip arm works and am keen to flip the arms on my 80s thanx

Why do you want to flip the arms, what is it you want to acheive by this?

Cheers

mainly for castor corection and flipped arms will end bein alot cheaper than buying aftermarket dropped radius arms for similar gains in flex and castor corection and on road driveability corect me if im wrong

SimonInAustralia wrote: No, the important factor is the angle between the chassis mount and the centre of the axle/wheel.

Off on a tangent here but does the tyre size and the height/profile of the object being driven over also affect the resistance of the suspension to moving upwards?

IE a 37inch tyre goes up and over a gutter easier than a 31 inch tyre, given idential suspension configuration. (in theory)

josh80 wrote:mainly for castor corection and flipped arms will end bein alot cheaper than buying aftermarket dropped radius arms for similar gains in flex and castor corection and on road driveability corect me if im wrong

That's fine but new castor plates with the arms underslung will acheive the same result and probably be easier to do.


Cheers.

Struth wrote:

josh80 wrote:mainly for castor corection and flipped arms will end bein alot cheaper than buying aftermarket dropped radius arms for similar gains in flex and castor corection and on road driveability corect me if im wrong

That's fine but new castor plates with the arms underslung will acheive the same result and probably be easier to do.


Cheers.

yes but with castor plates then you get issues with the tie rod rubbing on the radius arms so flip arm it is

josh80 wrote:

Struth wrote:

josh80 wrote:mainly for castor corection and flipped arms will end bein alot cheaper than buying aftermarket dropped radius arms for similar gains in flex and castor corection and on road driveability corect me if im wrong

That's fine but new castor plates with the arms underslung will acheive the same result and probably be easier to do.


Cheers.

yes but with castor plates then you get issues with the tie rod rubbing on the radius arms so flip arm it is

Fair enough, my car has the steering rod in front of the diff so I didn't think to remember that the 80 has it behind the diff.

Just be sure the flipped arm wont contact the chassis on up travel.

Cheers

josh80 wrote:mainly for castor corection and flipped arms will end bein alot cheaper than buying aftermarket dropped radius arms for similar gains in flex and castor corection and on road driveability corect me if im wrong

I agree with this, I think it is a cheap solution to caster correction in a lifted 80series. I rotated the knuckles on mine and created clearance issues with tierod hitting the radius arms. I would flip the arms if going again.

Also creates some ground clearance and considering the rock rash on the front of my radius arms clearance and castor correction is enough reason for me to do it