Outer Limits 4x4 Board

engineers

Some pics for anyone interested...

Shaved Salisbury Rear casing (upside down):


Dana 60 front:


Maxi-Drive Salisbury diff centre (next to rover centre):


Dana 60 centre with 3.54:1 reverse rotation (high pinion) ring and pinion:

Stange engineering - DIY Dana 60...


Salisbury front (low pinion only) - note the special track rod needed.

To make this simple - If you can afford to run dana60's then do it!!
I can't comment a lot on GU strength, but when you look at it the numbers simply don't add up in there favour.

Even stocker 35 spline dana 60's are strong and can be upgraded massively over time.

The upgrades to alloy axles and CTM uni joints makes a huge difference in strength. You can then start looking at the 300m stuff for even more strength.

Every competition we go to we are always sitting back in camp having a beer whilst virtually every other team is fixing their CV's and drivelines.
Shanes jeep has been through:

Woodpecker - first comp, timed out on jackhammer, zero breakages
Tuff Truck - 11th place, still learning as a team, broken front uni
WE rock at Bathurst - 4th place, quiet hard courses, zero breakages
WE rock finals at Milbrodale - 8th place, very hard courses and a tough time following buggies around , zero breakage
OZ rock at Yea - Very hard courses, Looking at first or second after first day when atlas broke.

Shane got CTM's and Yukon alloys after Tuff Truck.
The Yukons are the cheapest alloys you can get and do not have the strength reputation of superiors.
They are still a very decent upgrade though.

He managed to break the front 27 spline output shaft on his Atlas II transfer case before we broke anything else.

If you had been at Ozrock you would of seen how much we bound up the driveline on the hardest course for day 1. I am sure someone, somewhere has got a video of that punishment

Just so you have a reference Shanes diffs and setup are:

Jeep TJ - weighing probably 2000kg plus
4.0 litre motor with plenty of mods
Stock jeep 5 speed AX15 transmission
Atlas II transfer case with 4.3:1 low range
Stazworks double beadlocks (heavy steel wheels)
38.5x14.5" Swamper TSL/SX's
Tyres are filled with approx 25 litres of water each

Rockcrusher High pinion dana60s
4.88 ratio
detroits
CTM unis
Yukon alloy 35 spline 1.5" axles
full hydro steering


The dana60's are massively strong and take a lot of punishment.
If you can afford them then get them.
The upgrade to Yukon alloy shafts and CTM's does not cost that much and is definitely worthwhile.

cheers

z

Ben...

Is that pic of the front Sals from one of your LRs?

How do you go with the front shaft? The angle there would be HUGE .

Could you post up some more info on the front Sals. Think that would be a good move for my mate to put under his RR for comp work, rather than using Datto/Toyo parts.

Micka

ok after comparing the axles n diff gearing inside, wat are the casings like compare between the dana 60 and salisbaury, cause the casing of the defenders are huge and i could never see one off those crack open in a hurry,

i didnt relise salisbury are available for the fronts, i picked up a military casing they use on the 6x6 which is cast just like the salisbury rear casing only the strd diff and axles fit, it has been worth the money and is alot more pro than welding bits of steel to strd diff

heres apic of the front, the rangie diffs also bolt straight in

Rangie ute on 38'' wrote:ok after comparing the axles n diff gearing inside, wat are the casings like compare between the dana 60 and salisbaury, cause the casing of the defenders are huge and i could never see one off those crack open in a hurry,

i didnt relise salisbury are available for the fronts, i picked up a military casing they use on the 6x6 which is cast just like the salisbury rear casing only the strd diff and axles fit, it has been worth the money and is alot more pro than welding bits of steel to strd diff

heres apic of the front, the rangie diffs also bolt straight in

The casings are very strong.
You can choose your own diff cover from many available.
The tubes are very strong
You can choose between knuckles and outer components like crane, dedenbear, etc.

Look closely at the following pic as that is a rockcrusher diff cover under the bucket

No need for diff protectors with those units!

Rangie ute on 38'' wrote:ok after comparing the axles n diff gearing inside, wat are the casings like compare between the dana 60 and salisbaury, cause the casing of the defenders are huge and i could never see one off those crack open in a hurry,

i didnt relise salisbury are available for the fronts, i picked up a military casing they use on the 6x6 which is cast just like the salisbury rear casing only the strd diff and axles fit, it has been worth the money and is alot more pro than welding bits of steel to strd diff

heres apic of the front, the rangie diffs also bolt straight in

i thought the front diffs on the 6x6 were an upgraded rover diff???

what year model 6x6 is this off, do you have anymore details???

cheers, Serg

Look closely at the following pic as that is a rockcrusher diff cover under the bucket

No it ain't, it's a turtle, probably dead now...

How much could you possibly spend on a Dana 60.

I know that the after market GU cv's are of poor quility unless it is a terrain tamer. Getting hold of genuine for reasonable dollars would be the way to go otherwise. I know of a few winch challenge trucks running GU front diffs for years without a CV breakage and yet we manage to break one or two GQ CV's a round when we were running the standard 4.2 petrol.

I dont think there is anything wrong with either just depends on how much dollars you want to spend.

LudaCris

who in aus builds Dana60s with all the goodies .. and how much! specifically for a GQ coilcab

Micka wrote:Ben...

Is that pic of the front Sals from one of your LRs?

How do you go with the front shaft? The angle there would be HUGE .

Could you post up some more info on the front Sals. Think that would be a good move for my mate to put under his RR for comp work, rather than using Datto/Toyo parts.

Micka

Not mine unfortunately, that truck belongs to Nigel (Red Ibex) - who comes on here from time to time.

That front salisbury is from an armoured car, and comes stock with AEU2522 (110 county CVs). AFAIK we didn't get any coiler front salisburies in OZ, all we got were the 101" Forward control axles, shich are leaf sprung (SOA), six stud (not 5), about 3" wider track than a RR/Def axle, and have huge drums, not discs. These had ENORMOUS CVs and 1.47" 21 spline axles.

I have seen a few 101 axles floating around in OZ, and modman on here may have a line on some. All the parts are still available (in the UK), and it should be possible to convert them to 5 stud and discs. Also, macnamara have made locksre for them in the past, or broached ARB side gears to 21 spline. The biggest disadvantage is that the swivel balls are welded on, not bolted.

You can of course get a rear (Series III) housing and retube it to become a front - then fit the outers parts from a rover axle. But the strongest CVs you can run are then longfields.

Another option if you want to spend some money, is Mal Story makes special chrome balls, that are series LR size, but let you run a 101 CV (machined from a solid block of 4340 then hard chromed). They are not cheap though, last I asked I was told $1000 (can't remember if that was a pair or both).

EDIT - if it is a good move for your mate or not really depends on what tyres he is running. and what he wants to do with the truck. Most rangies don't seem to need much more than the toy conversion, BUT the toy guys with longfields and 4340 or 300m axles are now breaking everything but the CV's and axles - hubs, diffs, etc...

ludacris wrote:How much could you possibly spend on a Dana 60.

You could spend anything upto about 20k on just one steering axle!

With all new componants!

I was just watching RIDES on Foxtel and they put a Dana 60 in Joe Rogans '70 'Cuda. It has a 700hp Hemi in it

Must have some beef to handle all that

so now that the chromo cv's have come out for gu are opinions still the same?

tuf045 wrote:so now that the chromo cv's have come out for gu are opinions still the same?

yep!
D60 win hands down!
Built GU is still weaker than a built Toyota LC. You still can't get as much good stuff for nissans.

1MadEngineer wrote: Built GU is still weaker than a built Toyota LC. You still can't get as much good stuff for nissans.

PPPFFFFFTTTT!

Strange Rover wrote:

BIG GQ wrote: Don't know enough about the dana's but you are kidding right You don't think a GU diff (be it front or rear) would last a few stages in WEROCK or similar

Put it this way. You give me a rig with a GU front axle for 10 minutes and I bet I can break a CV. Bind the front tyre in a hole, turn the steering wheel to full lock and drop the clutch at max revs in reverse and I reckon it will break.

If I gave you the same rig with a built dana 60 in the front I dont think you would break it in a year. A built dana 60 is just that much stronger.

Just check out the US rockcrawling guys with the dana 60 front axles with CTM joints and CTM 300m 35 spline shafts. These guys wheel the crap out of their rigs all year at competitions and wheel even harder in between comps and never break all year. They also have over 150kg of lead shot in each front tyre and they still dont break.

Sam

your not really comparing apples with apples are you, your comparing a diff from a truck with around 5 ton gvm with thousands of dollars of after market parts with a stock patrol diff of course it will be stronger so would a rockwell out of a kenworth. i dont know why your concerned about the nissan outer stubs as the cv cage or inner axles brake way before the stub will . i have broken cage and axles and even the plantry gears in my air locker but never a stub axle (although i have seen the cheap Chinese cvs snap stubs)

which apples would you like to compare? Toyota 60 series V nissan GU?

Some REAL stats. GU 2nd hand ~$1500, 60ser 2nd hand <$500 (and get a free 60 series), GU - 233mm ring gear, 60 - 241mm Ring. Chromo replacement CV's GU ~$1800 Toy ~$1200. CV stub Dia on GQ/GU is 2mm smaller than Toy, locking hubs on nissans only good for ~5000ft/lb, toyota/aisin ~8000ft/lb. Swivel ball neck diameter (where they always bend) GU - ~55.2mm, Toy 60mm (and shorter to reduce offset loading), GU swivel ball diameter is 2.3mm larger than 80 series yet internally smaller - 80 series ball can run a 1350HD Ujoint yoke (with CTMS). GQ/GU stub axle bore diameter is only 0.2mm larger than a Toyota CV stub shaft therefore too small to use the BIGGER toyota CVs. There is no HIGH steer or 6bolt knuckles or anything similar available for nissans only the upgrade to MQ?

Yes the nissan stuff is good stock! but the $ differential nowdays does not make them a viable alternative $v$ (ATM - but i am working on it). I wish i had better news, and not from a lack of trying.

Dana 60 's win hands down any day of the week. Stronger housing, stronger axles, more steering lock by a mile and more up grades avalible.
The only thing that would be better is a Ford 9in centre with dana 60 knuckels and axles but then the ARB for the 9in is aparently not as strong as the Dana 60 one.

dave wrote:Dana 60 's win hands down any day of the week. Stronger housing, stronger axles, more steering lock by a mile and more up grades avalible.
The only thing that would be better is a Ford 9in centre with dana 60 knuckels and axles but then the ARB for the 9in is aparently not as strong as the Dana 60 one.

i may be biased to nissan diffs more but a dana 60 centre wins hands down over a 9 inch centre.

rvh96 wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:

BIG GQ wrote: Don't know enough about the dana's but you are kidding right You don't think a GU diff (be it front or rear) would last a few stages in WEROCK or similar

Put it this way. You give me a rig with a GU front axle for 10 minutes and I bet I can break a CV. Bind the front tyre in a hole, turn the steering wheel to full lock and drop the clutch at max revs in reverse and I reckon it will break.

If I gave you the same rig with a built dana 60 in the front I dont think you would break it in a year. A built dana 60 is just that much stronger.

Just check out the US rockcrawling guys with the dana 60 front axles with CTM joints and CTM 300m 35 spline shafts. These guys wheel the crap out of their rigs all year at competitions and wheel even harder in between comps and never break all year. They also have over 150kg of lead shot in each front tyre and they still dont break.

Sam

your not really comparing apples with apples are you, your comparing a diff from a truck with around 5 ton gvm with thousands of dollars of after market parts with a stock patrol diff of course it will be stronger so would a rockwell out of a kenworth. i dont know why your concerned about the nissan outer stubs as the cv cage or inner axles brake way before the stub will . i have broken cage and axles and even the plantry gears in my air locker but never a stub axle (although i have seen the cheap Chinese cvs snap stubs)

Yea - I wrote that back in 2005...

And the technology has improved in the last 3 years....

Dana 60 steering joints now turn to better than 50 degrees and are stronger than ever...the current crop of built aftermarket axles and steering joints have been shown to be stronger than d60 crown and pinions and Ford 9 inch hemispheres (nobody really breaks the built Ford 9in crown and pinions (drag racing developed stuff) but the small (in hemispheres are now the weak link). Guys with built dana 60 stuff wheel as hard as they need to without fear of breakage. I now have a buggy with front steering and rear steering Dana 60 with a built 350 chev and Ill drive it as hard as I need to...both lockers in, full noise, flog the piss out of it...whatever it takes. The things I break in it are outer knuckles (they crack where the high steer arm attaches but have since reinforced them), lower links (bend them and then break them) and now Im having trouble with how the front inner Cs are welded to the axle tube...but anyway...just got to weld them on a bit better. Flogging the piss out of this rig would be like flogging the piss out of a GU nissan in reverse on full lock with both lockers engauged.


For GU nissan there now are aftermarket shafts and CV but they still get broken easily...basically just comes down to you can only fit a 30 or 31 spline stub shaft through the small nissan stud pattern/drive flange arrangement.

Cool thread all the same.

Bit of a blast from the past for me though...back in 2005 I was dreaming of built dana 60 axles and now Ive got heaps of them.

Actually I got one buggy that is running stock dana 60 front axles and steering joints and I let all sorts of people drive it and flog the piss out of it and it has only ever broken one steering joint in over 2 years of abuse...and that was really only due to turing the axle too sharp making the joint bind and then eventually fail.

But anyway...all good fun!!

Sam

joeblow wrote:

dave wrote:Dana 60 's win hands down any day of the week. Stronger housing, stronger axles, more steering lock by a mile and more up grades avalible.
The only thing that would be better is a Ford 9in centre with dana 60 knuckels and axles but then the ARB for the 9in is aparently not as strong as the Dana 60 one.

i may be biased to nissan diffs more but a dana 60 centre wins hands down over a 9 inch centre.

Stock for stock maybe.

But there is lots of evidence that built 9in crown and pinions are stronger than the best Dana 60 stuff. The only real issue with the 9in stuff is you carnt get much strength into the small hemisphere. The small hemisphere comes about because the 9in has the 3rd bearing on the pinion which is also why the crown and pinion is so strong.

Sam

rvh96 wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:

BIG GQ wrote: Don't know enough about the dana's but you are kidding right You don't think a GU diff (be it front or rear) would last a few stages in WEROCK or similar

Put it this way. You give me a rig with a GU front axle for 10 minutes and I bet I can break a CV. Bind the front tyre in a hole, turn the steering wheel to full lock and drop the clutch at max revs in reverse and I reckon it will break.

If I gave you the same rig with a built dana 60 in the front I dont think you would break it in a year. A built dana 60 is just that much stronger.

Just check out the US rockcrawling guys with the dana 60 front axles with CTM joints and CTM 300m 35 spline shafts. These guys wheel the crap out of their rigs all year at competitions and wheel even harder in between comps and never break all year. They also have over 150kg of lead shot in each front tyre and they still dont break.

Sam

your not really comparing apples with apples are you, your comparing a diff from a truck with around 5 ton gvm with thousands of dollars of after market parts with a stock patrol diff of course it will be stronger so would a rockwell out of a kenworth. i dont know why your concerned about the nissan outer stubs as the cv cage or inner axles brake way before the stub will . i have broken cage and axles and even the plantry gears in my air locker but never a stub axle (although i have seen the cheap Chinese cvs snap stubs)

100% agree ron.

why is it that you can buy so much upgraded parts for toyotas, and not for a nssan. quality of product i would be thinking.....

giantracing wrote: 100% agree ron.

why is it that you can buy so much upgraded parts for toyotas, and not for a nssan. quality of product i would be thinking.....

Really funny...

Its funny if you dont own a nissan.

The reality of it is the toyota doesent have a very strong crown wheel and pinion and but it has decent sized stub shaft so up graded CVs and axles work well cause they are comparible in strength (if not stronger) to the toyota crownwheel. So you up grade the parts and they dont break and you have a happy customer and you make money.

In a nissan if you up grade the CV and axles and you still break the CVs and axles...there is no way around it cause the CV and CV stub is so small that no matter what you make it out of you will still break it. doesent make the stock nissan any good...just means you carnt make any money out of upgraded CVs and axles, cause they will still break.

The reality of it is the CV in a GQ or GU is weaker than a toyota cause the outer stub is smaller. Throw all the bling materials you want at the GQ or GU CV and you will still break the outer stub and you will still be weaker than a toyota longfield.

And there is no money in that...so there is a very small aftermarket support for them. Fawk..I know of 4 different companies that have had a go at making upgraded stuff for nissans...and I think one is still doing it.

Sam