Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Doing some playing around with concepts for longer travel IFS

Does anyone know or know where I can find the max angles for CV's.

I assume the max angle reduces dependent on how hard the steering is turned??

Are Hilux, Nissan, Mitsu CV's all roughly the same angle?

Thanks for any help

Regards
Leeham

im lead to beleive mitsu cv's are the pick of the ones you listed both for strength and angles. also know from when i had a triton that the only way to go with cv's if you want travel is modded porsche ones and that means big coin.

Leeham, their all rated at 29 degrees maximum working angle.
Toyo's & Mitsi's use NTN from the factory not 100% sure on the other Jap makes.
Best I've found are Porsche 936 CV's rated at 45 degrees and can take massive torque loads but are about $1500 US each !!!!!

Not sure about the 45degs from a 934 cv, but you can get them a lot cheaper . They are $470 AUD from racer imports.
I thought that i heard that prepped 100 series cv's were good for the 40 degree mark.

Thanks.

I thought 100series front CV's were the same as Hilux. The tecomas in the USA have the same cv's as the hilux etc but 3" longer axles/drive shafts.

anybody know where i can find out what needs to be done to adapt porche cvs to suit hilux. I'm geussing splines etc would be all wrong.

thanks again

Leeham

To adapt porsche cv's you will need to Machine off the cup off where the original toyota items match up. Then you will have to turn up some flanges with the correct bolt pattern as the new cv's and press these on and then weld the two together. Al this and making sure that you have enough room for the axle to plunge during travel and not bind up against the half shafts.
Offroaders have been doing this for a long time with changing kombi shafts to porsche pattern.
Another option that has been done in the states is to adapt T100 axles to hiluxs. I am guessing that ifs cruisers and Prados might have longer axles with larger cvs.

Oh yeh, I forgot that custom axles will be needed with the Porsche option.

Thanks Blurredvision,

Do you know of any books/websites that have information on the IFS setups for the offroad buggies / prerunners etc. I am looking for info on the geometry, what works and what doesnt. Is there a technical book that these guys use? Even info that is not necessarily 4x4. these offroad racers have some insane amounts of travel from their front suspension, just want to know angles, steering etc.

cheers
Leeham

Leeham porsche CV's are not like normal CV's where the bell has a stub attatched to it. This is one of the reasons why they are so strong and can operate on greater angles. If you were to machine a bell for them you would be removing the part that makes them work so well.

I'd be looking at live axle front end conversion if your thinking of spending that mate coin.

Cheers Dan.

blurredvision wrote:To adapt porsche cv's you will need to Machine off the cup off where the original toyota items match up. Then you will have to turn up some flanges with the correct bolt pattern as the new cv's and press these on and then weld the two together. Al this and making sure that you have enough room for the axle to plunge during travel and not bind up against the half shafts.
Offroaders have been doing this for a long time with changing kombi shafts to porsche pattern.
Another option that has been done in the states is to adapt T100 axles to hiluxs. I am guessing that ifs cruisers and Prados might have longer axles with larger cvs.

How do the dimensions of a Porsche CV compare to a 100 series or GU?

I will measure a cv up tomorrow for you.
As far SAS for getting travel it all depends on what you are going to use the ute for. For crawling and slow extreme driving there is no doughting the strength of straight axles. But if you are going to run tracks as fast as you can go independent comes into its own with handling and lower unsprung weight.
Here is a site of a guy that might be of interest to you.
http://www.trailslesstraveled.com/viewa ... 6&catid=51
Enjoy.

Thanks Guys,

Not interested in SAS.

That site is great, seen those kits before but that site has a lot more detail. I am working on a similar idea but wanting to keep as close to original track as possible.

Keen to know more on the porche CV's.

What would custom axles be worth?? My plans require longer axles anyway so might be better off getting some to suit the porche cv? Where do the offroad guys get the mods done or is it special order stuff from USA?

Cheers
Leeham

Leeham, Dean Williams will be a good place to start. He has been ehgineering off road race cars for years and does extremely good quality work. Dean was instrumental in the build of Andy brown's frontera.
I can't find his number but if you ring his dad, morris, he'll help you. Morris has TRIK Off road products. Morris's mobile number, 0412 361 864.
Good starting point anyway

http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_t ... ts_101.htm

Good comparison on VW cvs, aparently the 930s only have a working angle of 25 deg. I'll have to check out how they compare to the stock cv size wise.

Looks like the T100 cv's are identical to the Hilux just a longer axle. I think its safe to assume the 100series and prado ones are the same too.

thanks Ruffy, found some more great stuff on the Aussie offroad sites while searching Trik offroad.

Cheers
Leeham

Just measured up a porsche cv, 107mm diameter and 40mm wide.
As far as getting advise, the Williams are both very good sources of information, with a wealth of knowledge.
And as the limitations of 930 cv's, yes 26 degrees is the ideal but i have seen them live through up to 34+degrees. I guess that the deal is that the more the travel, the less power is being put through it. Also when you use it for the front end you are not only dealing with the wheel travel component but also the steering lock as well which starts to bring the in on allowable travel.
Rule or thumb is use the longest axle you can to keep angles down.
Axles can set you back from $425 a pair for a set out 4340.

blurredvision wrote:Just measured up a porsche cv, 107mm diameter and 40mm wide.
As far as getting advise, the Williams are both very good sources of information, with a wealth of knowledge.
And as the limitations of 930 cv's, yes 26 degrees is the ideal but i have seen them live through up to 34+degrees. I guess that the deal is that the more the travel, the less power is being put through it. Also when you use it for the front end you are not only dealing with the wheel travel component but also the steering lock as well which starts to bring the in on allowable travel.
Rule or thumb is use the longest axle you can to keep angles down.
Axles can set you back from $425 a pair for a set out 4340.

That is a pretty big CV considering hiluxes are only 90ish mm. What diameter is the 28 spline axle which the porsche runs?

100 series and prado cvs are not the same as hilux 4runner cvs not even close both are much larger 100 series being the largest ,splines are bigger inners mount to diff differently .biggest problem with toyota cvs is the inner tripod joints they will bind up at any more than 10 deg causing damage to the joints and even crownwheel & pinion.to run more angle smoothly you need to change to ball bearing type joints like pajero or rodeo these are able to cope with a lot more angles. porshe cvs arent the answer either as they dont have enough travel in them to cope with such a short axle (axles on buggies are up to 30inchs long hilux is about 12inchs long) and they could only be used on the inner anyway as their not desiged for a steering joint so by the time you made an adapter plate to mount them to the diff flange you would loose another 40 mm of axle length

The 28 spline axle is about 30mm OD.
I am not an expert on Toyota cv's, but the ones that I have seen on various rock crawlers for their drive shafts are not tripods, but the same ball bearing design as the 930. Also they seem to be pushing some serious power through large angles. Pete Antunac's for instance.
As far as not being designed for steering 4wd drive porsches have similar design for cv's.
This is a good site for ideas, unfortunatly they went out of buisness, but from the pictures you get the idea of their kit.
http://www.esbfabrications.com/13kit.htm
They also address the cv issue on their kit.......

Can I still run 4wd with your kits that go on 4wd vehicles?

Yes. These is no reason why you cannot retain your 4wd. On the 13" kit, you need to run stock T100 axles, they bolt right in. On the 17" travel kits, you will need to have custom axles made, and use either stock Tundra CV's (tacoma/tundra kits) or 930 CV's (older toyota truck) Also, we have not seen a case where the 4wd limits the travel. On our 17" travel tacoma kit, the stock tundra CV's articulate more then the kit will, due to upper uniball/steering max out at around 19" metal to metal. The only time when 4wd cannot be retained is with our custom lift spindle( in development), for obvious reasons.

Just found another slightly different kit.

http://www.downeyoff-road.com/Suspensio ... /index.htm

Thanks RVH96, just worked out that the porche CV's are to replace the tripod joint, so no help to me. The outer is the problem at this stage.

As for needing longer axles thats fine, i am planning to run longer axles by centering the front diff rather than the offset as it is from standard which will give me another 150mm of length roughy in the front each side. This will also lessen the angle required of the inner tripoid joint and the outer CV. If all goes well, I'll be putting a larger front diff in too.

I will have to have a closer look under the 100 series and prado to see if anything will help me inclusing the larger cv's.

Thanks
Leeham

You haven't really gone into detail with this plan of yours, but have you considered lowering the diff, so that the CV's are closer to zero degrees at standing height?

And are you using ball, or heim joints on the control arms?