Outer Limits 4x4 Board

i thought i would post here for more opinions...

i have a spare 35w HID bulb and ballast from a vehicle spotlight upgrade and was looking into making a torch from it. wandering what would be the best batterie/s to use as i tried a 12v 8.4Ah SLA and only got 30min run time. when doing my research i found a lot of 24w HID with 6x 2200mAh batteries getting burn times over 2 hours. is it possible for a torch HID kit to be different from a vehicle kit?

tomorro im going to try 8x 2500mAh AA batteries to see if it will last any longer. in theory, would the more amps i have the longer it will run? or do i need the sheer volume of a larger battery rather then the smaller AA's

thanks for any info

PAUL

My experimentation with SLA batteries is you need a very small current draw to get anywhere near the rated capacity from them.

Using a 20w halogen bulb I was getting half the theoretical burn-time.

Keen to hear how you go. As I want a hid torch, for no other reason other than cos.
I know they can be brought out of the states and at the last 4b show in melb there was a mob selling a HID handheld spotty butt I have know idea where the details are sorry.
BusHy (Dave) would be the man to chat to about anything hid or laser. As hes the experimental R&D guy for stuff involving lights.

i tested the SLA battery lastnight and at 35w the lights should be drawing 3 amp approx. a little more on startup to heat the bulb. with an 8.4Ah battery i expected well over an hour, hoping for more like 2. but it never got there. half an hour was pretty good considering all those high powered halogen spotlights only get about 15 to 20 min. with recharge times up to and over 15 hours. with the SLA i could boost charge it for an hour to get another half hour of light from it. so the ratio was pretty good. but realisticly i would like a little more burn time.

im only doing it cos....well cos as well

i tested 8x2500mAh AA NIMH 1.5v batteries about 20min ago....and was very disappointed. the batteries together created 12v and 13A but it wasnt enough power to even keep the light on. it would only flicker.

i found 1 company that made a 35w HID spotlight, with a 7" reflector on it and 12v 7Ah SLA battery in it. it weighed in a 4kg but was kinda what i was intending to build. but it said nothing about burn time or charging time. about A$300 shipped here.

the "maglite" looking 24w HID i found seems to be very common and runs of 6x sony G5 2200mAh LI-Ion battereries. i havent been able to locate what size or type of battery it is ut i would be very interested to know, because it gets aburn time of around 120min. by comparison, i should get approx 2/3 of that burn time with a 35w, about 80min.

im about to go down to a couple of elec stores and see what they have to say about batteries, because im fast running out of ideas. im still to find out if HID torches run a different type of HID kit...possibly even less voltage?????

PAUL

The HID one you found, was it the driving light or the handheld torch version. The torch is 35w and 6000k and you should get at least 2 hours out of it. I have the lights on my car. 5w on startup and 3w running. Torch is rechargable. Have seen one, expensive but great for hunting or if you just have to have the ultimate torch. I can get them for you, but not heaps more under $300 unfortunately.

For your application, I'd look at NiMH or Li-Ion batteries rather than SLA - there's a reason that cordless tools don't normally use SLA.

When calculating effective capacity of a set of batteries (more correctly, a battery of cells, but that just doesn't sound right) you can only ADD Ah ratings if the batteries are in parallel. If the current flows through the batteries in series, you're not increasing your Ah capacity. Also remember that your 8.4Ah battery is unlikely to STILL be 8.4Ah (capacity decreases with every discharge cycle) and that 8.4Ah would be a "C20 rate" - a discharge current of 8.4A/20 = 410mA. Draw more than 410mA and capacity decreases.

SLA batteries do not like deep discharges, and they don't like high charge currents. NiMH are the opposite; they don't mind deep discharges, and they don't mind high charge currents (if done properly - full charge in under an hour.) A set of 8 D cell NiMH may do what you want - should have significantly larger mAh rating, and deliver a higher current for starting. But no promises.

Li-Ion batteries I don't know much about - somebody else can talk about them.

The last thing to consider is efficiency of the HID controller. For an automotive application they're probably built down to a price, and they're powered by a massive generator - so efficiency isn't much of an issue. For a torch application somebody may have developed a more efficient controller, to waste less energy. Or not - I really don't know.

Good luck,

Scott

vanbox wrote: i tested 8x2500mAh AA NIMH 1.5v batteries about 20min ago....and was very disappointed. the batteries together created 12v and 13A but it wasnt enough power to even keep the light on. it would only flicker.
PAUL

With that set up u only had 12v 2.5amps.

When linking thoses batteries in series (+ to -, + to -) u are going to get 12volts 2.5amps.
Linking in parallel (+ to +, - to -) u will get 1.5 volts 13amps.

thanks for the replies. i did find that out from a couple of tech guys in the elctronics retail stores the same thing. so the 8.4Ah i thought i was getting out of the SLA is actually only 4.2 (ran 2x6v 4.2Ah) and that got us 30min. there is a 12v 7Ah battery which is about as big as 2 of those 6v ones, which should give approx 40% more time if at its capacity. i think.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... &rd=1&rd=1

is the one i looked at. and is pretty much what i wanna make (35w, it uses a 7Ah 12v SLA)

the option of lithium ion and another type of battery we looked at is pretty much out of the question due to price. sanyo (very good battery manufacturer) make a 4400mAh 1.2v "d" size NI-Cd battery. now i would need 10 of those to make the 12v and only get 4.4Ah. which will still only give me half an hour....at a cost of $150 (batteries, no charger) there is also a 9Ah version of the same battery at a cost of $250-300 (which is rediculous)

so the Sla is looking more then likely the way to go. for cost effectiveness. a couple of the "maglite" shape ones i looked at ran a 24w HID with a 4400mAh LI-ion battery and got close to 2 hours. but im guessing torch HID is more efficient then auto

keep the info coming guys. im still interested.

thanks
PAUL

vanbox wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... &rd=1&rd=1

thanks
PAUL

I knew I should have checked ebay when I want these things. I wonder what hte candlepower forum thinks of these compared to what they can get from Costco etc.

I knew I should have checked ebay when I want these things. I wonder what hte candlepower forum thinks of these compared to what they can get from Costco etc.

After seeing your link to ebay, that's the HID torch I was talking about. It's available here, and has been for some time. Same lens etc as my driving lights.

Imagine when we can buy fuel-cell torches - just fill 'em up with metho or something and get a mega beam.

Should not be too far off either - there are a number of designs coming out to power laptops...

I still love to get out my green laser on a dark night - they look great on the beach with the moisture from the surf in the air.

Of course my ultimate laser would have to be a smart mozzie zapper. Can you imagine putting up camp, crack a beer, put the "Mozzie Terminator" black box on the ground and let it fry all the mozzies within 10m. Would not even need a big laser - just the electronic smarts to home in on a mozzie.

Yes, I hate mozzies.

After seeing your link to ebay, that's the HID torch I was talking about. It's available here, and has been for some time. Same lens etc as my driving lights.

do you know how much life that spotlight has on a charge? and how long it takes to recharge? is it just a standard driving light HID or is there a more efficient one for battery run devices?

anyone have suggestions on battery types to use? have pretty much worked out what needs to run them....12v (up to approx 14) and min 7Ah for adequate life, more amps the better.

thanks

PAUL

Heres some info for a 9amp/h SLA battery, this info came with my rifle mounted lightforce spotlight.

Battery life

100% discharge= 200 cycles
50% = 500
30%= 1200
(30% = 10volts)

Battery Discharge Time

100watts(8.3amps) = 40minutes (to reach 10volts)
75w(6.25a) = 1hour
50w(4.16a) = 1h30min
30w(2.5a) = 2h40min

Vanbox, it is claimed "more than 2 hours operation". Unsure of charge time. It has the same lens as I have on my GQ's driving lights as they have been made universal by the manufacturer. If you look at the link to the ebay site and look at the HID torch, the same thing sits on the front of my GQ, but a smaller body as there is no battery obviously. Feel free to come and have a look. I'm in Melbourne's south east. More than happy to help. Personaly, having seen this same torch in operation, don't bother trying to make one. I'm the sort of person that says "I can always do better" but sometimes you have to conciede. Buy this torch and you wont be dissapointed. I would, just I don't need such a great torch. But, yes, I do want one.

Battery life

100% discharge= 200 cycles
50% = 500
30%= 1200
(30% = 10volts)

Battery Discharge Time

100watts(8.3amps) = 40minutes (to reach 10volts)
75w(6.25a) = 1hour
50w(4.16a) = 1h30min
30w(2.5a) = 2h40min

thats some excellent info. i guess you just read it off the side of your battery, but are those discharge times until when the battery reaches 10v? cause a HID ballast will run between approx 8-14 volts, and therefore if i had a 9ah battery like you do, i should get over 2 hours on the 35w HID. i will only be able to run 7Ah because of space and weight though. so even an hr and a half would be nice.

What about RC batteries ?

6 Sub C cells in a stick pack. Around 4000Mah. Good size (not too heavy)

mate in the club has a HID torch - its same size adn shape as a Maglight..

fuck its insane.. i gotta get me one when the price 1/2s...

What about RC batteries ?

6 Sub C cells in a stick pack. Around 4000Mah. Good size (not too heavy)

just considered that earlier. however they are only 7.2v so would need to to get a healthy 14.4v but 4000mAh is only enough for less than half an hour. would want 8000 min. so all together would need 4 of those batteries. cost approx $160 < http://www.modelflight.com.au/cars_rc_m ... teries.htm

found an awesome Li-ion battery from www.batteryworld.com its a 14.4v 10Ah cell pack for $140 US (which is reasonable for that power)...but they want another $90US in shipping. does anyone kow if that kind of capacity is available here. quote from that battery "can run 30w 12v HID light for 4.8hrs" thats a bit much...but would be excellent.

mate in the club has a HID torch - its same size adn shape as a Maglight..

***** its insane.. i gotta get me one when the price 1/2s...

yeh i know. they want $500 for them and they are only 24w. so imagine a 35w. i run a pair of hella 4000's with 35wHID and love them. so a spotlight would be very handy. just need to work out these goddam batteries.

vanbox wrote:

mate in the club has a HID torch - its same size adn shape as a Maglight..

***** its insane.. i gotta get me one when the price 1/2s...

yeh i know. they want $500 for them and they are only 24w. so imagine a 35w. i run a pair of hella 4000's with 35wHID and love them. so a spotlight would be very handy. just need to work out these goddam batteries.

wait a few mths for the 50w ones to come out.. but as you say, battery life will be rooted.

vanbox wrote:

Battery life

100% discharge= 200 cycles
50% = 500
30%= 1200
(30% = 10volts)

Battery Discharge Time

100watts(8.3amps) = 40minutes (to reach 10volts)
75w(6.25a) = 1hour
50w(4.16a) = 1h30min
30w(2.5a) = 2h40min

are those discharge times until when the battery reaches 10v? cause a HID ballast will run between approx 8-14 volts

Yep 10volts, below 10 volts starts reducing battery life and a normal globe starts to dull off. Is a HID the same brightness at both 8 and 14volts??

12v 9amp/h SLA batterys are $40 at your door off ebay.

Yep 10volts, below 10 volts starts reducing battery life and a normal globe starts to dull off. Is a HID the same brightness at both 8 and 14volts??

12v 9amp/h SLA batterys are $40 at your door off ebay.

im no sure. just that the operating voltage is between 8 and 14. but obviously the more volts the less current draw. so the higher voltage should last a bit longer. the SLA i tested....the bulb was consistent in brightness then just shut off. no dimming. its like a saftey system within the ballast i guess.

i only just found a 9Ah battery then. just cntacting the supplier to get dimensions and weight, but that could be more plausible. also 2x6v 14Ah batteries would be good, but i think too big

PAUL

hey pauly remember the ballast control rig for HID's also includes a mosfet voltage supply which intern regulates voltage and current to globe... so that operating voltages from 8-14 , for example , regulate the voltage to glob at 11.5V at 1200mA and as stated before Contact Bushy555 off this board has done a very large amount Of R&D for this kind of gear

i often use a 35w spotlight running off a 7a/h SLA battery. run time is usually 2-2.5 hours.

however as guys with some LED products have found, if it has voltage/current regulators in it what tends to happen is the light runs constantly bright rather than dull down over the 2.5 hours. it uses the power more quickly doing this so you will get less running time. thats of course is offset by the fact that its the same brightness all the time untill the battery runs out completly. some of the LED products will start flashing to warn you the batteries are almost empty.

i often use a 35w spotlight running off a 7a/h SLA battery. run time is usually 2-2.5 hours.

ill be happy with HALF that time. for a prototype anyway.

when i tested with 4.2Ah 12v batteries i got 30 min and it didnt go dim, it just shut off...which im guessing is something to do with the mosfet and like a safety mechanism within the ballast.

after a few nags i contacted bushy this afternoon so ill be eager to hear his response.

would NiMH batteries be good? and does anyone in australia sell/import a 14v 10A battery pack? that would be the type of battery i think i would need but i cant find any in the country.

PAUL

Look into mountain bike lights.

Alot of guys run 35w HIDS with batteries and get pretty decent run times out of them.

But any parts from them aint gonna be cheap.

This site sells Lithium Ion 12v 26Ah battery packs for ebikes.
Not cheap - but fair bit of power packed into 2.65kg.

http://www.dlmenergy.com/index.php?main ... ucts_id=62

Sav

have a look at http://www.nightlightning.co.nz/adventu ... oducts.htm

exspecially http://www.nightlightning.co.nz/adventu ... m#Endurenz

http://www.nightlightning.co.nz/nightli ... tralia.htm

Found the same torch in AUS-
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Torch-7-HID_W0QQ ... dZViewItem

Still works out abit cheaper to buy it from the US though.