Outer Limits 4x4 Board

how hard is it to get it engineered? just wishful thinking at this point in time..... but i could possibly get my hands on a set of 404 diffs for a good price.... kinda trying to see what i can raise in funds from a certain person hehe just curious as to the engineering dramas.

I imagine somebody will have a fit when they see the lift, but I doubt there's anything in the regs which would prohibit it.

I think your biggest problem would be legal guards & mudflaps - i.e. covering the tyres. I think one or two "factory" vehicles got away with it in the past, but I doubt they'd let through a modified vehicle these days.

It's an interesting prospect - I hope you manage to pull it off.

i'd have to pull my lift back a bit i suspect...... and like i said, it's only a pipe dream at the moment. see what happens in the near future i imagine that with wheel coverage, it could be done with appropriate flares.....

Patrolden wrote:i'd have to pull my lift back a bit i suspect...... and like i said, it's only a pipe dream at the moment. see what happens in the near future i imagine that with wheel coverage, it could be done with appropriate flares.....

I cant see a reason it can be denied other than things such as brake technicalities etc, going from disc brakes to drum brakes is never going to be passed. (are mogs drum brakes?)

In QLD youd have other things to worry about such as the increased track (cant increase track more than 2").

In QLD its an interesting way to get around the lifting issue as thier guidlines stipulate suspension travel changes, whilst idf your fiutting mogs you could keep your factory springs, or even 2" lifted springs, and still gain the 5" lift of the portals.

Shadow wrote: In QLD youd have other things to worry about such as the increased track (cant increase track more than 2").

Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Brakes could be an issue - I hadn't thought of that. Mogs are heavier than a Patrol (even a Patrolden ) and typically run much larger tyres (which reduces braking efficiency.) Worst case, I guess they'd ask for a brake test, which I would expect the Patrol to pass.

The biggest problem I can see is the offset of the pumpkin.

It can be re-engineered as a totally new vehicle with new compliance plates etc. just like the street rodders and some kit cars.

i jut wana say if it get done

a very big IF

-Scott- wrote:

Shadow wrote: In QLD youd have other things to worry about such as the increased track (cant increase track more than 2").

Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Brakes could be an issue - I hadn't thought of that. Mogs are heavier than a Patrol (even a Patrolden ) and typically run much larger tyres (which reduces braking efficiency.) Worst case, I guess they'd ask for a brake test, which I would expect the Patrol to pass.

I dont want to take this thread off topic but do you have the name of an engineer that will pass this. I have tried several times to get the correct info and everytime am told opposite to what you are saying. I wanted 80 or GU diffs under the Lux but have been told it cant be done everytime.

booflux wrote:

-Scott- wrote:

Shadow wrote: In QLD youd have other things to worry about such as the increased track (cant increase track more than 2").

Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Brakes could be an issue - I hadn't thought of that. Mogs are heavier than a Patrol (even a Patrolden ) and typically run much larger tyres (which reduces braking efficiency.) Worst case, I guess they'd ask for a brake test, which I would expect the Patrol to pass.

I dont want to take this thread off topic but do you have the name of an engineer that will pass this. I have tried several times to get the correct info and everytime am told opposite to what you are saying. I wanted 80 or GU diffs under the Lux but have been told it cant be done everytime.

mate i had the same prob, could not find an engineer in qld that would pass wider diffs.

killalux wrote:

booflux wrote:

-Scott- wrote:

Shadow wrote: In QLD youd have other things to worry about such as the increased track (cant increase track more than 2").

Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Brakes could be an issue - I hadn't thought of that. Mogs are heavier than a Patrol (even a Patrolden ) and typically run much larger tyres (which reduces braking efficiency.) Worst case, I guess they'd ask for a brake test, which I would expect the Patrol to pass.

I dont want to take this thread off topic but do you have the name of an engineer that will pass this. I have tried several times to get the correct info and everytime am told opposite to what you are saying. I wanted 80 or GU diffs under the Lux but have been told it cant be done everytime.

mate i had the same prob, could not find an engineer in qld that would pass wider diffs.

I was told by a qld transport officer the same thing, all qld transport care about is the chassis, if it has an 80 series chassis it is an 80 series, and an 80 series came factory with X amount of track.

If you put an 80 series body on a MOG it is now a MOG.

Shadow wrote:.

If you put an 80 series body on a MOG it is now a MOG.

And that could be the key.

For what it is worth, I don't think 404 diffs are really appropriate for the application. They were never intended for the HP, rim offset, or speeds that a V8 GQ would be expected to achieve. 404 mogs ran a 2.2l petrol motor good for about 60hp. Personally, I think that some heavier mog diffs would be better suited.

A quick point about mogs. Suspension on Mogs is a "one link" front and rear. Mogs run a torque tube around the driveshaft that acts as a suspension link. as a result, engine torque has no loading/preloading effect on the suspension, and ALL tractive force is transferred into the wheels rather than jacking the body around.

Also, Mogs run VERY flexible chassis. Mog chassis twist through 17.5 degrees at maximum articulation.

Of course, with a GQ with Mog diffs, you will get GQ suspension behaviour, only worse due to the leverage of the portals. really, you will just have a GQ with lots of ground clearance and 7.56 diff gears, so it will get pretty unusable on the road. Remember, mogs are only good for 60 or 80kph on the road, depending on transfer gearing, and that is with 42" tyres.

One way of going might be to discuss transplanting a GQ body onto a complete 404 mog chassis. 404's are not very expensive, and if the complete car than then be registered as a 196? mog then you have plenty of scope for legal tyres and engines as you only have to comply with 196?'s ADR's on emissions etc,

However, if it ends up an ICV, as I understand it it has to meet ADR's from the year of manufacture, meaning 2007, which would be no good at all.

PS Rovers have been engineered here in vic with volvo portals, so on the face of it is possible.

Just my 2C worth.

Steve.

qld rules recently changed. gq onto mog is now an ICV (no longer can you do body swaps). diffs are easy to get passed however, don't go to an engineer EVER!!!! blue plate at an approved persons, for $77 and the plate will be the same plate with the same codes as and engineer but without the dramas or the $$$$$$

cheers bru.

also track is from the donor diffs - ie on mine I can still go 50mm wider than my gu diffs etc

If you run stock Unimog 20" rims the track width will be damn similar to the GQ width anyway. 404's are only ~1900 overall width with the skinny Dunlops/Michelins. Patrols with 8" rims and 12.5" tyres are ~2000 overall width. So track width measures betwen tread centres would be pretty similar.
Allow plenty of $ in your budget to retube the front housing and have shafts made up to suit, otherwise there is no way to build your car at a sensible height. With a buggy you can lay the drivetrain out around the axle problems, with an existing vehicle you don't really have that luxury..
These axles will probably also speed limit your car to about 90-100kph.

I'd also ask what the goal with your truck is in the end? do you want a pure comp truck? a weekender? or daily driver?

steve do you think that 400hp could break those diffs I was under the impression that the axles were 2"5/8 thick and just because there was only a 60hp motor driving it doesn't mean it can't handle more.It is also the weight on the axles and going by pictures 404 are small trucks.

bogged wrote:I'd also ask what the goal with your truck is in the end? do you want a pure comp truck? a weekender? or daily driver?

Bragging rights aren't a good enough reason for ya?

bru21 wrote:qld rules recently changed. gq onto mog is now an ICV (no longer can you do body swaps). diffs are easy to get passed however, don't go to an engineer EVER!!!! blue plate at an approved persons, for $77 and the plate will be the same plate with the same codes as and engineer but without the dramas or the $$$$$$

cheers bru.

also track is from the donor diffs - ie on mine I can still go 50mm wider than my gu diffs etc

I have been told you cant blue plate a diff swap I looked into it for the rear surf swap. They couldnt do that so I dont see how they could do a entire axle swap, with wider diffs???

Gwagensteve wrote: For what it is worth, I don't think 404 diffs are really appropriate for the application. They were never intended for the HP, rim offset, or speeds that a V8 GQ would be expected to achieve. 404 mogs ran a 2.2l petrol motor good for about 60hp. Personally, I think that some heavier mog diffs would be better suited.

They also came out with a 2.8 (although rare) and a common conversion is to put a 3.5l V6 in a 404. However the M180 (2195cc) engine in the 404's put out 82 HP DIN @ 4800 rpm (90 HP SAE)

As for handling the horse power of the V8 they are more than capable of it. There have been people that have put V8's into their 404's and the weakest link is the transmission, that is what blows.

For example in the US there are people running 462 Caddy Motors, with 44"swampers, or 6.2l Diesels running 42's, or 426 Fords (430HP) on 42's all with no problems on 404 axles

But if you are talking heavier Mog diffs, then the next step are the 416/406 Diffs. The question is do you really want that much weight under your vehicle considering that the 404 Axles weigh in at approx 300kg each and the 406/416 axles considerably more..

Gwagensteve wrote: Of course, with a GQ with Mog diffs, you will get GQ suspension behaviour, only worse due to the leverage of the portals. really, you will just have a GQ with lots of ground clearance and 7.56 diff gears, so it will get pretty unusable on the road. Remember, mogs are only good for 60 or 80kph on the road, depending on transfer gearing, and that is with 42" tyres.

While you are correct in that Standard 404 Axles have a Crown/Pinion Ratio of 3.54.1 , Portal Ratio 2.13:1 which gives a Total Ratio 7.56:1.

On a 2.2l 404 this means a max cruising speed of around 90km/h. Transmission heat then becomes the limiting issue, but one that can be overcome by finned transmission plates. This is with 39" tyres which are standard on a 404.

However you can get Freeway Axles (harder to find though) which will allow cruising speeds of 110km/h quite comfortably.

The 5.9l Diesel 416 on the other hand has a max cruising speed of around 75-80 km/h

But you are right, you Mog axles in general are low geared and basically if you own a Unimog (or I am guessing anything with Mog axles) lower cruising speeds are just the price you pay.

Gwagensteve wrote: One way of going might be to discuss transplanting a GQ body onto a complete 404 mog chassis. 404's are not very expensive, and if the complete car than then be registered as a 196? mog then you have plenty of scope for legal tyres and engines as you only have to comply with 196?'s ADR's on emissions etc

The issue you have here is how to mount the GQ body while still allowing the chassis to flex. If you stop the chassis flexing you will find that you loose a great deal, if not most of the Unimogs ability.

If you have a look at the tray's on the Mogs, you will see it has a number of pivot points and is only solidly mounted in 3 places, the same as the cab.

The axle width is about 1620MM. I dont think this is much diferent than an 80 series. The front Axle has a max load of 210kg while the rear has a max load of 2500kg (max payload of 1750KG).

In all honesty though, I would say unless your building a comp vehicle, the expense of putting mog axles under a vehicle make it a bit prohibitive. You may as well just by a unimog

for the cost wouldnt a marks kit be on the table aswell

wrksux wrote:for the cost wouldnt a marks kit be on the table aswell

dont forget the Marks kit is 17,500 for a set of GQ exchange axles, but yes they are a bolt in option

They also have a large brace running from the portal to the axle, which IMO someways negates the point of going to portals.

Yopu can see the brace in this pic.

edit : duplicate post

-Scott- wrote: Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Sorry Scott but you are wrong on this - every engineer & blue plater I have spoken to has told me it is the original vehicle track, not the donor axle track.

patrol42 wrote:dont forget the Marks kit is 17,500 for a set of GQ exchange axles, but yes they are a bolt in option

You would have to be extremely serious.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

-Scott- wrote: Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Sorry Scott but you are wrong on this - every engineer & blue plater I have spoken to has told me it is the original vehicle track, not the donor axle track.

OK - that's news to me.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

-Scott- wrote: Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Sorry Scott but you are wrong on this - every engineer & blue plater I have spoken to has told me it is the original vehicle track, not the donor axle track.

In NSW he is right, the new track goes of the donor diffs, and as long as you cover the tyres the engineer should ok it.

I have talked to 2 different engineers about running mogs, and both are happy to pass them in theory as long as the work is to a good standard and the tyres are covered.

Tazz wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

-Scott- wrote: Goes by the original application of the "new" axle. They would find some track figures for a Unimog, and that sets the new basis for the +/- 2".

That's how people can get away with Hilux diffs under a Sierra - the base track becomes the Hilux track, not the Sierra track.

Sorry Scott but you are wrong on this - every engineer & blue plater I have spoken to has told me it is the original vehicle track, not the donor axle track.

In NSW he is right, the new track goes of the donor diffs, and as long as you cover the tyres the engineer should ok it.

I have talked to 2 different engineers about running mogs, and both are happy to pass them in theory as long as the work is to a good standard and the tyres are covered.

So would that mean, that a vehvicle in NSW, that has Hilux axles thrown under it, would now be SPOA as standard? Or is that a different kettle of fish?

What if you could get just the mog portal assembly..and mate it to your existing axle? Would that be easier to engineer and be a better option?