Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 12:23 pm**

My drivers side door on my Dahatsu Rocky got smashed while open so had to remove it. Is it legal to drive this truck in the USA without doors.
Thanks in advance.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 12:29 pm**

probobally be better to ask that question on pirate4x4 or one of the other american sites, i doubt there would be many people on this board that are familiar with American laws and requirements

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 5:19 pm**

if the vehicle can with removable doors as standard (i.e. origional landcruisers, they also came with straps to put across the open doorway) then yes, as for vehicles that were designed to have a door on them at all times, id say it would be classed as un-roadworthy...

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 5:50 pm**

Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 5:55 pm**

macca81 wrote:if the vehicle can with removable doors as standard (i.e. origional landcruisers, they also came with straps to put across the open doorway) then yes, as for vehicles that were designed to have a door on them at all times, id say it would be classed as un-roadworthy...

he's from America so I don't reckon guessing based on Australian rules is going to be too applicable to him

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 5:56 pm**

grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?

Actually its very legal to drive without doors. You only need a chain or something across the opening.

Think about the old mokes, they didn't have doors from the factory.

Why is it anymore dangerous to drive a car without doors then it is to ride a motor bike? I still prefer to be T boned in a car without doors then to be T bone on a motorbike.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 5:57 pm**

grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?

actually there are vehicles in Australia that can legally be driven without doors like Sierra, Wranglers, 40 Series, Mokes to name a few

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:12 pm**

probably not in qld i bet

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:28 pm**

grimbo wrote:
grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?
actually there are vehicles in Australia that can legally be driven without doors like Sierra, Wranglers, 40 Series, Mokes to name a few

Am am sure there is an ADR which these vehicles comply with.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:30 pm**

Guts wrote:
grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?
Actually its very legal to drive without doors. You only need a chain or something across the opening.

Think about the old mokes, they didn't have doors from the factory.

Why is it anymore dangerous to drive a car without doors then it is to ride a motor bike? I still prefer to be T boned in a car without doors then to be T bone on a motorbike.

no way, any car that came with a door factory is unroadworthy without it.

kidding yourself if you think anything else.

in 1862 they had cars with timber wheels, doesnt mean its legal now.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:31 pm**

short stuff wrote:probably not in qld i bet

everythings illegal in QLD. In fact, saying that something is illegal in QLD, is illegal in QLD

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:32 pm**

Shadow wrote:
Guts wrote:
grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?
Actually its very legal to drive without doors. You only need a chain or something across the opening.

Think about the old mokes, they didn't have doors from the factory.

Why is it anymore dangerous to drive a car without doors then it is to ride a motor bike? I still prefer to be T boned in a car without doors then to be T bone on a motorbike.
no way, any car that came with a door factory is unroadworthy without it.

kidding yourself if you think anything else.

in 1862 they had cars with timber wheels, doesnt mean its legal now.

Brothers 40 series is legal with NO doors on it as long as it has a chain or bar across the opening.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:33 pm**

grazza wrote:
grimbo wrote:
grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?
actually there are vehicles in Australia that can legally be driven without doors like Sierra, Wranglers, 40 Series, Mokes to name a few
Am am sure there is an ADR which these vehicles comply with.

yeh, a very out of date ADR.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:34 pm**

Guts wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Guts wrote:
grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?
Actually its very legal to drive without doors. You only need a chain or something across the opening.

Think about the old mokes, they didn't have doors from the factory.

Why is it anymore dangerous to drive a car without doors then it is to ride a motor bike? I still prefer to be T boned in a car without doors then to be T bone on a motorbike.
no way, any car that came with a door factory is unroadworthy without it.

kidding yourself if you think anything else.

in 1862 they had cars with timber wheels, doesnt mean its legal now.
Brothers 40 series is legal with NO doors on it as long as it has a chain or bar across the opening.

because they came with removable doors from factory.

Pull a door off a torrana and no amount of chain or straping is gonna make it legal.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:45 pm**

Brother inlaw done a RTA (NSW) course on the weekend
The engineer running it said if the cars door has no side intrusion bars (not required by ADR at the time of build) you can run with no doors

You need to find out which ADR is for side intrusion bars and see if it's stamped on your compliance plate

My 85 Zooks are OK with no doors

that means I can run tube doors

edit:
I just seen you are from the US

For the Aussies

. In 1999 ADR 72, dynamic side impact occupant protection, was introduced for passenger vehicles, recognizing that side impacts account for 25% of motor vehicle fatalities annually.

from: http://raws.dotars.gov.au/issue3.doc
So that's pre 99 vehicles that do not have side intrusion bars, IMO

ADR List
http://www.dotars.gov.au/roads/motor/de ... nline.aspx

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:47 pm**

It'll all depend on if the car has side intrusion bars built into the doors or not.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 8:04 pm**

fool_injected wrote:Brother inlaw done a RTA (NSW) course on the weekend
The engineer running it said if the cars door has no side intrusion bars (not required by ADR at the time of build) you can run with no doors

You need to find out which ADR is for side intrusion bars and see if it's stamped on your compliance plate

My 85 Zooks are OK with no doors that means I can run tube doors

edit:
I just seen you are from the US
For the Aussies
. In 1999 ADR 72, dynamic side impact occupant protection, was introduced for passenger vehicles, recognizing that side impacts account for 25% of motor vehicle fatalities annually.
from: http://raws.dotars.gov.au/issue3.doc
So that's pre 99 vehicles that do not have side intrusion bars, IMO

ADR 72 only came into effect in 1999, 2000 for 4x4's.

ADR 2 is more applicable, came into effect in july 1988, and says (translated) if any part of a manikin placed in a seating position projects onto a door, then the door must comply to ADR 2.

What it does say is "Components on
folding doors, roll-up doors and on doors that are
designed to be easily attached to or removed, without the
aid of tools, from motor vehicles manufactured for
operation without doors need not comply with this Rule."

ADR's only started in 1988 i think, so i guess you would have to look for the standards that your vehicle complied with if it was built pre 1988.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 8:09 pm**

what about a 73 series middy? roof and windscreen can be easily removed, would look stupid with front and rear doors still fitted to it

cheers

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 8:28 pm**

Madmac wrote:probobally be better to ask that question on pirate4x4 or one of the other american sites, i doubt there would be many people on this board that are familiar with American laws and requirements

I was going to ask on an american site just could not remember the name of them. When I find out I will let you all know. Thanks for all the repies.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 8:54 pm**

In QLD - if the vehicle came from the factory with a door then it must be fitted and must be closed. A neighbour of mine had an old transit van with a sliding driver's door. He used to drive it around with the door open until he got a ticket.

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 8:58 pm**

what about half doors??? would they be legal?? if they have mirrors??

Evan..

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 9:46 pm**

half doors are the same as if the door has its window down

if the car came with removable doors as standard then its legal, otherwise its not. simple as that.

y remove a door thats not meant to be removed, simply to stick a bar across it? its basically putting another door on there, IMO

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 9:51 pm**

evanstaniland wrote:what about half doors??? would they be legal?? if they have mirrors??

Evan..

At the end of the day, QLD transport does not have to approve any modification. An engineer (preferably the origonal engineer) has to approve them.

If a police officer or DOT officer looked at your half doors, and thaught "maybe the structural integrity of the vehicle is impacted by that" then he can defect the vehicle, and make you get something from the manufacturer of the vehicle to say that it still complies with all relevant standards.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 8:15 am**

mate had a cj7 jeep with clip on vinyl doors. Its made driving tracks 100% easier, took a little to get used to though! Definitely do not want to have a motocross background!

As far as the rules go I am pretty sure you can remove any door. The lotus 7 we are building does not have doors therefore does not need to comply with the side impact adr's. IMO if there are doors fitted they have to comply (need side intrusion bars in the doors etc). If the doors are removed the ADR is no longer needed as there are no doors left to comply. This is just my understanding though!

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 9:19 am**

Shadow wrote:
Guts wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Guts wrote:
grazza wrote:Its probably legal in USA.

Definitely not in Australia.

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?
Actually its very legal to drive without doors. You only need a chain or something across the opening.

Think about the old mokes, they didn't have doors from the factory.

Why is it anymore dangerous to drive a car without doors then it is to ride a motor bike? I still prefer to be T boned in a car without doors then to be T bone on a motorbike.
no way, any car that came with a door factory is unroadworthy without it.

kidding yourself if you think anything else.

in 1862 they had cars with timber wheels, doesnt mean its legal now.
Brothers 40 series is legal with NO doors on it as long as it has a chain or bar across the opening.
because they came with removable doors from factory.

Pull a door off a torrana and no amount of chain or straping is gonna make it legal.

hang on one second you say no way then in your next breath say its ok as they have removable doors. So which side of the fence are you going to sit.

I had a Sierra that was perfectly legal to drive around Victoria in without doors as long as it had all the side mirrors on that it would have if the doors were on. Maybe QLD is different and maybe other states are too, but you can do it legally in some places of Australia with some vehicles like the ones I mentioned in an earlier post.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 10:49 am**

grimbo wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Guts wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Guts wrote: Actually its very legal to drive without doors. You only need a chain or something across the opening.

Think about the old mokes, they didn't have doors from the factory.

Why is it anymore dangerous to drive a car without doors then it is to ride a motor bike? I still prefer to be T boned in a car without doors then to be T bone on a motorbike.
no way, any car that came with a door factory is unroadworthy without it.

kidding yourself if you think anything else.

in 1862 they had cars with timber wheels, doesnt mean its legal now.
Brothers 40 series is legal with NO doors on it as long as it has a chain or bar across the opening.
because they came with removable doors from factory.

Pull a door off a torrana and no amount of chain or straping is gonna make it legal.
hang on one second you say no way then in your next breath say its ok as they have removable doors. So which side of the fence are you going to sit.

I had a Sierra that was perfectly legal to drive around Victoria in without doors as long as it had all the side mirrors on that it would have if the doors were on. Maybe QLD is different and maybe other states are too, but you can do it legally in some places of Australia with some vehicles like the ones I mentioned in an earlier post.

My engineer said the same thing about my 92 sierra, so long as I had mirrors it was legal, and I have been driving with doors off and the windscreen down for years.
Peter.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 12:41 pm**

As I read the ADR, the need for a "door" is defined around the intrusion bars.
There is nothing stating the same material/design needs to be used.
So in theory you could use something like this on a land cruiser and call it a door:

Running doorLESS means just that no door....and which I have done myself many time with my 97 TJ.
As for folding the windscreen - the issue there is you are supposed to have operating windscreen wipers ......

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 2:12 pm**

Bogged from ausjeepoffroad: http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/sho ... ge=3&pp=10

Dear Mr Tanner.

Thank you for your email.

In regard to your query:

It is currently illegal to drive with the windscreen folded down on a public road, as they protect the driver against airborne objects (insects, small stones kicked up by other vehicles' tyres, etc) that may impede their vision or cause injury while driving.

Given that the external mirrors are also attached to the doors, and that it is a requirement to have them on BOTH sides of the vehicle, the doors must remain on the vehicle while being driven on a public road.

If you require any further information, please do not hesitate to reply to this email. Alternatively, you can visit our website, www.dpi.wa.gov.au/licensing or call the Customer Contact Centre on 13 11 56 (inside WA) or 08 9427 6404 (outisde WA).

Yeah I know what your thinking but this not another, "can I remove my doors" post etc.

What is it about.

I have written to the QLD DOT and asked whether it is legal or not, the respondant stated with NO, as it is a modification that adversely effects the safety of the vehicle.
This was after I had stated in my initial letter that the doors (half doors in my case) are designed by the manufacturer to be removed, therefore it is not a modification and that the manufacturer specifies that the doors are only to keep the weather elements out of the vehicle, they do not offer any side impact protection.

The respondant went on to cite the following as the reasons:

Under Queensland's Transport Operations (Road Use Management - Vehicle
Standards and Safety) Regulation 1999 it is an offence to modify a road
vehicle in a way that would adversely affect its safety.

It is clear that removing a door from a motor vehicle adversely affects its
safety and therefore this is not permitted.

Side impact protection is covered in Australian Design Rule 72/00 Dynamic
Side Impact Occupant Protection and can be down loaded from the following
web address:

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legisla ... 2072-00%20[FINAL%20FRLI].pdf

My assumption is that he did not read the letter fully as he would of noted that the doors do not offer side impact protection and that they are designed to be removed therefore how is this a "Modification".

What I am after from you guys is any evidence (scanned manuals, photo's, warning signage etc.) that is from DC JEEP that verifies my argument. I have personally seen these warnings but can't for the life of me locate them. I think they were in someone elses manual, as mine does not mention door removal or the lack of side impact protection. (It only goes into detail about folding the windscreen down.)

This will only apply to TJ's with standard fitment half doors (97 - 04 I think?) as the newer model TJ's with full doors comply with the ADR referenced.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 2:34 pm**

Glad i don't live in QLD or WA then.
Peter.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 5:09 pm**

it IS 100% LEGAL to have NO windscreen. How do I know?

Our 7 does not have a windscreen, It is getting engineered at the moment. If you have a windscreen the only adr's (old was less than 2% tint no longer valid) the only other one is a certain %age needs to be swept by the wipers.

2ndly qld is the hardest state to get icv's passed, therefore this should apply to all states

if its a new car like a bf falcon it may be deemed to be part of the rollover structure etc and this may not apply.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

what are the laws on driving without doors

what are the laws on driving without doors