Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hi guys

I got a TB42 turbo and got it dyno'd today and found my current air cleaner is way to small and need something bigger!

Guy said i can pick a donaldson air cleaner unit for $100 ?

Thanks alot if u got any prices i'm thinking of trying a Truck shop or something

Rick.

Most truck places will be able to help, but Detroit Diesel are the Ozzy agents and importers for Donaldson filters.

kempster1 wrote:Most truck places will be able to help, but Detroit Diesel are the Ozzy agents and importers for Donaldson filters.

Oh ok thanks alot mate for that

I think i just need a big arse filter so that's why i'm going to truck way becuase i think that's going to fix it


Bigger is better

Cheers

Rick

I thought Hitachi industrial was the agent for donaldson? They are at Archerfield on Beatty Rd.
Take a look at their website and it will give you a good deal of info on their range of products, or you can go in and tell them what you want and they will size it correctly cause if it is over sized you lose some of the efficiency of their filtering.
Hope this helps

blurredvision wrote:I thought Hitachi industrial was the agent for donaldson? They are at Archerfield on Beatty Rd.
Take a look at their website and it will give you a good deal of info on their range of products, or you can go in and tell them what you want and they will size it correctly cause if it is over sized you lose some of the efficiency of their filtering.
Hope this helps

Looking at Donaldsons web site, I could be wrong on the import bit.
Looks like they do it all themselves
Some of the filters we use, Detroit get from Donalson in the US, so I assumed they where the importer

blurredvision wrote:I thought Hitachi industrial was the agent for donaldson? They are at Archerfield on Beatty Rd.
Take a look at their website and it will give you a good deal of info on their range of products, or you can go in and tell them what you want and they will size it correctly cause if it is over sized you lose some of the efficiency of their filtering.
Hope this helps

Thanks alot guys


Yeah the problem is the current air cleaner unit i'm running is way to small and will cause problems with the bearings on my turbo so i need to get something bigger to statify the turbo.. i want something i can plumb a 4" stainless snorkle into as well..

Cheers

Rick.

On the topic of Donaldsons...

Which Donaldson Top-Spin part number would be used for my 2002 FZJ105 (4.5 1FZ-FE) with Safari snorkel SS85HF?

Want it to put on only when we're in convoy.

Physh Call Les @ AbsoluteFilters in Hume, ACT.
Ph: 6260 1888

Be a bit careful Mulisha,

A Donaldson that flows enough air and has big enough inlets/outlets for you application will be pretty massive.

Donaldsons are primarily designed for industrial applications and are not generally designed to fit under bonnet or run the CFM numbers you are running in an underbonnet application.

As an example, have a look at the donaldson style air filter that Kym Bolton runs on his GU - It's about 14" diameter and sits behind the cab.

Even small diesel boom lifts etc making maybe 30kw tend to run donaldson filters way bigger than you could fit underbonnet.

you might be able to get a msall one to fit, but unless you looked at vacuum pre and post filter, it might be hard to know if it was too small (although running on the dyno with and without will tell you something, but you will have to expect some power drop through a filter.

Just an observation.

Steve.

K & N = excellent flow and better than factory fit.

Not to mention very good filtration from my experience using them for many years.

Mulisha wrote:hi guys

I got a TB42 turbo and got it dyno'd today and found my current air cleaner is way to small and need something bigger!

Guy said i can pick a donaldson air cleaner unit for $100 ?

Thanks alot if u got any prices i'm thinking of trying a Truck shop or something

Rick.

go to a truck wrecker and get yourself an 8" air box, most k&n filters will these air box's

these generally self for around $70 - 80 in melbourne and can accomodate a 4" intake.

guzzla wrote:K & N = excellent flow and better than factory fit.

Not to mention very good filtration from my experience using them for many years.

*Hijack*
Others (including me) do not share this experience, and science seems to support the opposite view to yours. This is well documented. When industrial applications start going to K&N, I will consider one. Personally, In any case, I wouldn't use a freer flowing element to make up for an airbox which is already too small.

*Hijack off*

An 8" donaldson body might be a good fit, but I would be concerned that the filter (when using the appropriate filter) area would be too small to flow over 300hp of air. Donaldsons work with a centrifugal action to throw debris to the outside of the housing where it can be removed through a rubber pinch closed drain. they work best with a top-spin to take out the big chunks and then servicing of the element becomes very infrequent. There are diffusers inside that propogate this centrifugal action, no offence, but sticking a K&N or similar pod inside this box undoes the engineering of the donaldson filter.

How about having a look at factory filter assemblies from cars that already flow enough air? I am thinking of Falcon XR8/LS1 Commodore, or something european even. I get nervous about cut up filter boxes etc as there is very little margin for error in an inlet system when it comes to leaks.

Steve.

How did they determine your filter was too small?
What vacuum did it cause?

Well guys after all that i got a 80 Serries air box (landcrusiers are good for something now)

I got told they will flow enough air for my needs and that's what i'm after

Thanks alot guys for ya help

And i'll be looking at a K&N for this box in the future i think..

Rick.

I've just been through all this and ended up making an airbo to fit the K&N I'm using. As has been said Donaldson work really well but you need someting massive. When I had the TD42 I used a Donaldson housing with a K&N inside and that worked very well. I got the centrifugal cleaning and the flow. However as I know need about 850cfm things have changed a bit and a Donaldson to do that is just too big to be practical.
It is relativly easy to work out yor require CFM and so know what filter you need. An engine is just a big pup so you know it intakes every second rev, you know it's capacity, you know th revs it will do and you know it's boost. 14.7 psi doubles the capacity in effect. You can assume it's efficiency.
So capacity (in litres) x .5 x boost x efficency x rpm / 28.32
so for my motor
4.5 x .5 x 1.7 (10psi) x .85 (assuming 85%) x 7400 / 28.32 = 849 CFM

nzdarin wrote:I've just been through all this and ended up making an airbo to fit the K&N I'm using. As has been said Donaldson work really well but you need someting massive. When I had the TD42 I used a Donaldson housing with a K&N inside and that worked very well. I got the centrifugal cleaning and the flow. However as I know need about 850cfm things have changed a bit and a Donaldson to do that is just too big to be practical.
It is relativly easy to work out yor require CFM and so know what filter you need. An engine is just a big pup so you know it intakes every second rev, you know it's capacity, you know th revs it will do and you know it's boost. 14.7 psi doubles the capacity in effect. You can assume it's efficiency.
So capacity (in litres) x .5 x boost x efficency x rpm / 28.32
so for my motor
4.5 x .5 x 1.7 (10psi) x .85 (assuming 85%) x 7400 / 28.32 = 849 CFM

With no intercooling, 15psi boost will only give you about 60% density increase.
You need perfect intercooling (down to ambient temp) to get double the air in. Scale in-between those two depending on how good your intercooler is.

If you have a look on the Donaldson website their rough calculation is 2.5 x engine horsepower = cfm.
So your figure of 849cfm is good for about 340 engine HP.

http://www.donaldsonfilters.com.au/prod ... &intT2ID=1

http://www.donaldsonfilters.com.au/uplo ... 0DD-40.pdf

Keep in mind that it's only a problem if there is a pressure drop.

www.autospeed.com did a HEAP of testing with manometers on this years ago. They found average paper filter pressure drop was 3% of total intake drop. Biggest drops were mesh grids for airflow sensors (petrol) and any corrugated pipes - very large drops - 10 - 15% of total.

Also found that most aftermarket high flow filters (oil types included) flowed plenty of dirt. Short answer was paper filter flowed heaps and kept dirt out making aftermarket mainly an exercise in after marketing.

Replacing corrugated pipes however made significant improvements.

Drop a bit of clear water pipe across it as a manometer to determine if it's a real or imaginary problem. Toyota has a sensor for this exact purpose to say when filter is clogged. Google for details if you arent sure how.

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote: Drop a bit of clear water pipe across it as a manometer to determine if it's a real or imaginary problem. Toyota has a sensor for this exact purpose to say when filter is clogged. Google for details if you arent sure how.

Paul

But first make sure you aren't pulling a massive vacuum. It'd all end in tears if your engine sucked all the water out of your water-gauge.

So corrugated pipe like in this is no good?

I don't believe the 2.5 x HP to cfm as that would mean that every K&N people are using is way to small, and in most cases the correct size K&N provides very little (if any) restriction. With my motor if we worked on 2.5 x HP it would mean I'd have to fit a filter with 1500cfm which is just rediculous! But I'd be happy to be proven wrong. The filter I've fitted is rated at about 1000cfm as I figured that would allow a bit of clogging without restriction. My truck hasn't been on to the dyno yet (within the month it will be) so I can't support this with results yet.

nzdarin wrote:I don't believe the 2.5 x HP to cfm as that would mean that every K&N people are using is way to small, and in most cases the correct size K&N provides very little (if any) restriction. With my motor if we worked on 2.5 x HP it would mean I'd have to fit a filter with 1500cfm which is just rediculous! But I'd be happy to be proven wrong. The filter I've fitted is rated at about 1000cfm as I figured that would allow a bit of clogging without restriction. My truck hasn't been on to the dyno yet (within the month it will be) so I can't support this with results yet.

So your truck has 600hp?

1500cfm/2.5 = 600.

Gwagensteve wrote:

guzzla wrote:K & N = excellent flow and better than factory fit.

Not to mention very good filtration from my experience using them for many years.

*Hijack*
Others (including me) do not share this experience, and science seems to support the opposite view to yours.

nzdarin wrote:in most cases the correct size K&N provides very little (if any) restriction.

Hijack continued...

It is funny how you often get both of these comments on threads about K&N filters. "BETTER AIRFLOW" AND "BETTER FILTRATION". In 99.99% of cases, there is a direct correlation between pressure drop (airflow) and filtration efficiency (i.e. - higher pressure drop = improved filtration efficiency). So making these 2 claims about K&N filters is contradictory.

There is a reason that Donaldson filters are much larger than a K&N filter for the same application - the only way to get high (filtration) efficiency AND good airflow, is to make the filter larger so that average velocities through the filter media are reduced.

Hijack off/.


Mulisha - there is probably a donaldson filter element that will fit your 80 series air box, and it will be a much better option than a K&N if you plan to take your beast offroad.

ISUZUROVER wrote: It is funny how you often get both of these comments on threads about K&N filters. "BETTER AIRFLOW" AND "BETTER FILTRATION". In 99.99% of cases, there is a direct correlation between pressure drop (airflow) and filtration efficiency (i.e. - higher pressure drop = improved filtration efficiency). So making these 2 claims about K&N filters is contradictory.

The last time I picked up a K&N, I could see through the holes in it.

Good for keeping the bumblebees and pedestrians out of a ricer intake, but not for dusty conditions.

KiwiBacon wrote:
The last time I picked up a K&N, I could see through the holes in it.

Good for keeping the bumblebees and pedestrians out of a ricer intake, but not for dusty conditions.

Same goes for the one I have here that someone sent me to test - results will be interesting...

I knew you couldn't resist for long Ben. Remember though, people love the quick result.. maybe you should become a hiclone dealer

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:I knew you couldn't resist for long Ben. Remember though, people love the quick result.. maybe you should become a hiclone dealer

Steve.

Maybe - it seems easier to sell people snake oil than quality products these days... Not that I am doing either - not trying to sell anything - just help people with the knowledge I gained in 6+ yrs of filtration R&D...

GUJohnno wrote:So corrugated pipe like in this is no good?

It's good for flexibility

Piss poor for airflow

If it's turbo'd it won't matter a pich of shit, cause turbo just has to work a touch harder to suck and I guarantee it aint stalling (you would know). There is a *tiny* bit of power loss due to having the turbo work harder, but that would be likely be less than the acceleration lost to the drivers excess weight from too many 6 packs :)

Waste gate deals with all intake problem, especialyl if you plumb the waste gate hose in late in the intake system (after intercooler etc).

Naturally Aspirated on the other hand - all intake losses are lost power. Tuned intakes even make a difference, look at Falcon;s for the funny intake runners, cut them away and you'l find a butterfly and dual length runners. Ford got intake loss to basically zero at cruise RPM by compensting with tuned runner - gives effective boost like turbo - BUT only at certain RPM and only about 2psi equivalent. Most 2 valve intake systems are only about 60% efficient. 4 valve about 80%.

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:...but that would be likely be less than the acceleration lost to the drivers excess weight from too many 6 packs

...do you know me... lol
It is turbo'd, guess it's not a high priority to replace it then.

Thanx