Outer Limits 4x4 Board

so Fool Injected has a swb chassis and some 1l diffs at hisplace left over from the lwb project, I have the 1ltr zook we got for the project that never happened due to us both buying other vehicles

now we have had a few discussions regarding a very cheap comp series, which realistically means zook stuff to keep it cheap so people dont go nuts.

the basic idea is a swb zook, body off, front engine \ gearbox \ transfer limited to say 1.3l maybe 1.6ltr petrol or deisel if someone want to bother

leaf spring in SPOA or SPUA form with superior \ climax type shackles fromt and rear

geared and running say 33s or 35s

front winch minimum 5000lbs

any diffs (no portals) welded or locked

digs \ rear disconect \ twin stick allowed

power steer allowed, no hydro \ hydro assist allowed

single or twin seat allowed

minimal body ie bonnet , grill if wanted and sides clad


initially we would need to see about setting up a club of sorts to deal with costs of insurence etc and property top run it, I reckon 10 to 15 to get it running

what are people thoughts, ideas on specs, would you be interested in running, thoughts on making a kids leage as well to allow the young fellas a way into the sport like motorbikes and other forms of racing say age 14and up

wayne, hime in here anytime

What about coilies , Cheers Paul.

MART wrote:What about coilies , Cheers Paul.

yeah provided they retain the standard coil set up, basically no fancy linkied set ups is what we are trying to avoid

Bugger

MART wrote:Bugger

may be worth looking ito with some rules around linked set ups though, I suppose a coil set up with coils and chocks no coil overs of airshox etc would be no real benifit over leafs with climax type shackles, realy trying to make it so cost are kept to a minimum, you could build a pretty good rig for $4k or under, add coil overs etc to the mix, you looking at over $4k for most just for the susp set up

what style of events? rock crawling or timed obstacle? two up racing or solo timed? If vehicle was to be kept close to stock then it would be easier to set up chalenging courses. keep tyre sizes to 33 maximum so its cheap to get into.

Maybe even have a stock class and a modified class just like the mud racing has.

An interclub thing would be good, may help with insurance... there's heaps of Zooks out there in just about every club

built4thrashing wrote:what style of events? rock crawling or timed obstacle? two up racing or solo timed? If vehicle was to be kept close to stock then it would be easier to set up chalenging courses. keep tyre sizes to 33 maximum so its cheap to get into.

Maybe even have a stock class and a modified class just like the mud racing has.

thinking rock crawling mate, but so it is cheap etc you can run a ouple of drivers in one rig if you want, so you could bring the missus or the son or whatever or a couple of mates chip in then you can both have a run

Squik wrote:An interclub thing would be good, may help with insurance... there's heaps of Zooks out there in just about every club

good idea, event insurence on non timed stuff club based should be pretty reasonable, and open up acces to property like tin dag and the clan of manatous (sp) mating

I presume you will be at blak rat? chat about it there, I will be with the zook club

sounds good , theirs plenty of wannabe rockcrawlers with limited budgets and by doing as squik said (interclub ) would make it even easier .

there was a discussion about something similar to this done a while ago that I think maybe Sam Keck iniated. It seemed to get a good response then but nothing eventuated. Would be a cool little comp I reckon. Good fun and easily assecible for most

grimbo wrote:there was a discussion about something similar to this done a while ago that I think maybe Sam Keck iniated. It seemed to get a good response then but nothing eventuated. Would be a cool little comp I reckon. Good fun and easily assecible for most

IIRK Sam wanted a pretty complex set up, basically fulll tube buggies running zook gear hilux diffs (or very similar anyway) basically the concept is cheap cheap cheap, something that a young bloke can afford to get into, or old mate with his touring nissan or paj or whatever that can afford 20k on a rig that is going to be werock or nissan trials capable (let alone what you need to spend to be competative) but want to have a crack at competative driving

Tiny wrote:

grimbo wrote:there was a discussion about something similar to this done a while ago that I think maybe Sam Keck iniated. It seemed to get a good response then but nothing eventuated. Would be a cool little comp I reckon. Good fun and easily assecible for most

IIRK Sam wanted a pretty complex set up, basically fulll tube buggies running zook gear hilux diffs (or very similar anyway) basically the concept is cheap cheap cheap, something that a young bloke can afford to get into, or old mate with his touring nissan or paj or whatever that can afford 20k on a rig that is going to be werock or nissan trials capable (let alone what you need to spend to be competative) but want to have a crack at competative driving

i was thinking more about the responses that people gave in that thread to support to the idea. i agree the keep it simple theory woul db e more of a workable and probably popular thing

grimbo wrote:

Tiny wrote:

grimbo wrote:there was a discussion about something similar to this done a while ago that I think maybe Sam Keck iniated. It seemed to get a good response then but nothing eventuated. Would be a cool little comp I reckon. Good fun and easily assecible for most

IIRK Sam wanted a pretty complex set up, basically fulll tube buggies running zook gear hilux diffs (or very similar anyway) basically the concept is cheap cheap cheap, something that a young bloke can afford to get into, or old mate with his touring nissan or paj or whatever that can afford 20k on a rig that is going to be werock or nissan trials capable (let alone what you need to spend to be competative) but want to have a crack at competative driving

i was thinking more about the responses that people gave in that thread to support to the idea. i agree the keep it simple theory woul db e more of a workable and probably popular thing

Firstly,

Graham, you made a spelling mistake. (there's a first time for everything)

Secondly,

A simple class would be a fun thing. There's no such thing as a level playing field in motorsport. There are people with lots money and there are people without lots of money. Keeping cars as stock as possible reduces the advanates of having heaps of cash and weighs more towards having the brains to build a car the right way.

To do this.
1. Tyre size kept to a minimum
2. Diffs to be stock suzuki sierra housings, knuckles etc
3. Engine to be factory, no turbo's, blowers etc

As soon as you introduce hilux diffs or above you'll need to run two classes as many events do. This would allow greater numbers but then you may as well jump on the back of other events but run Zook only classes. this will save insurance, advertising, marshalls etc etc.

sierrajim wrote:

grimbo wrote:

Tiny wrote:

grimbo wrote:there was a discussion about something similar to this done a while ago that I think maybe Sam Keck iniated. It seemed to get a good response then but nothing eventuated. Would be a cool little comp I reckon. Good fun and easily assecible for most

IIRK Sam wanted a pretty complex set up, basically fulll tube buggies running zook gear hilux diffs (or very similar anyway) basically the concept is cheap cheap cheap, something that a young bloke can afford to get into, or old mate with his touring nissan or paj or whatever that can afford 20k on a rig that is going to be werock or nissan trials capable (let alone what you need to spend to be competative) but want to have a crack at competative driving

i was thinking more about the responses that people gave in that thread to support to the idea. i agree the keep it simple theory woul db e more of a workable and probably popular thing

Firstly,

Graham, you made a spelling mistake. (there's a first time for everything)

Secondly,

A simple class would be a fun thing. There's no such thing as a level playing field in motorsport. There are people with lots money and there are people without lots of money. Keeping cars as stock as possible reduces the advanates of having heaps of cash and weighs more towards having the brains to build a car the right way.

To do this.
1. Tyre size kept to a minimum
2. Diffs to be stock suzuki sierra housings, knuckles etc
3. Engine to be factory, no turbo's, blowers etc

As soon as you introduce hilux diffs or above you'll need to run two classes as many events do. This would allow greater numbers but then you may as well jump on the back of other events but run Zook only classes. this will save insurance, advertising, marshalls etc etc.

what are your thoughts on 33s, in my mind thats the ideal size, with weight, HP etc kept to a minimum, and a bit of strength in the way of birfeild rings, chromo if one wants to spend the coin

I'd stick to 31s as a way of keeping it cheap and keeping damage down a bit. 31s on a Zuk are a lot of usable tyre adding enough capability but still maintaining a driver skill input

Tiny,

Whilst I am not that into competition I have oganised and competed in a few events and I think you might be making it too complicated.

For every item you allow, you have to precisely define what it is, what standard is permitted etc.

As an example, if bigger diffs are permitted, how much bigger? Are CTM axled 60's fine?

If you say 1.6 is OK diesel is OK, then what do you do regads turbos? you have to develop turbo equivalency etc etc etc.

If what you are really chasing is beginner motorsport, then why allow so many modifications? There is absolutely no need. all you need is for everyone to be running the same setup

How about this:

A stock 1.0 sierra SWB. Diffs much be NT 1.0 (these are easy to pick because of the smaller pumpkin and rules out airlockers, double toughs and anything other than 4.1 or 4.88 diff gears

Transfer case - must be a sierra case. Gears are free. Rear disconnect permitted. fiddle brakes/line lockers permitted.

Suspension - no modifications to spring or shock absorber mount in positions permitted.

SPUA/SPOA - doesn't matter at all, but all cars need to be one or the other.

Organise an arragement with a cage manufacturer for a basic 6 point cage that meets basic safety standards. All cages will then be the same spec and can have a serial number on them. That takes cage scrutineering out of your hands so long as the cage is mounted to your specs.

No wheelbase stretch permitted.
tye size 31". Maximum width can be scrutineered.
Cars must have a fuel cell will rollover valve, roof sheet and wrist restraints, motorsport seat and harness. fire extinguisher.

Remember every rule needs to be so well defined that you are better to have less modifications than more.

Set up like this, these cars could be competed across a big range of terrain and still have fun. Most japanese trials/racing is based on a formula much like this one.

I understand what you are trying to do, but I reckon that the way you have sketched you rules up, the cars will quikly have $20-$30K in them. All you have is an underpowered tube buggy.

PErsonally, I would like to see a series where guys could run cars that are closer to what they are already driving, so they COULD be registered cars that are getting to the end of their lives. for maybe $2-3K which is 90% safety gear, they could be competing them and it be a genuine stepping stone to competitiive crawling.

just my 2C.

Steve.

The only problem i would see in limiting the rules in such a way is that most people would want to run their own car and not buy a second.

An absolutely stock class would be great but who'd buy a second car for it?

good input steve, of course rules need to be very well defined, and the rules need to be discussed with those likely to play.

I like the idea of no body, although having a body \ registered rig would be no real disadvantage except the damage component.

safety is the most important consideration, as you say proper restraints, seating etc is a must.

I know what you are saying about the engine, 1ltr or 1.3ltr STANDARD ZOOK ENGINE ,no deisel??? natrually aspirated only

NT 1ltr or 1.3 ltr zook diffs only gearing open

welded or auto lockers only

disconects, twin stick, cutting brakes etc open

zook MANUAL GEARBOX zook transfer (any gearing)

SPUA only, extended shackles, diffeernt spring packs, climax type shackles ok

31" tyres, must be mud terain, no beadlocks

Spring postion must be OE, WB OE, front shackle reversal OK, rear top shock mount position may be triangulated

cage, either 6 point internal cage to CCDA specs 6 point or better exo cage or tube set up, must have firewalland floor pan intact, and bonnet mounted, roof and sides to be enclosed

?????

Like the sound of that.

The first Oz Rock competition back in late '05 proved that bodied cars could drive some serious terrain if driven with care.

Jim- I think that what might happen is somewhere between running a raod /trip car and building a comp car.

With the competition cheap to get into it wouldn't take long before people were either putting together something cheap or pulling a beater off the road to compete.

I understand it it is true crawling that having badywork can lead to a entry list full of beaters very quick, but there is no way the stages could be that technical. I am thinking that the courses could be more like a trial where technical driving is tested more than outright nerve or committment. This also allows a wider range of terrain than crawling and different challanges.

PS with those rules you can still build 170:1 crawl 3.65 1st X8 Rocky Road transferX5.83 calmini diff.

Personally, I would be pretty keen to leave it at NT only. Donor cars are cheaper, it means that there is no big advantage for 1.3 vs 1.0, australia won't run out of second hand WT CV's in weeks, and the WT diffs can be kept for the guys building road drivers. could be hard to hold numbers though with no WT builds so I accept that, but I would hate to see all the WT second hand parts dry up because 15 CV's were being blown once a month
plenty of people are throwing away 1.0 and NT stuff.

Just my 2C.

PS I know cheezy has been looking to do a more road reg'd event along the lines of OZrock.

Steve.

How will anyone from NSW compete if only SPUA?

sierrajim wrote:How will anyone from NSW compete if only SPUA?

the point is we are talking about a rig that is dirt cheap to build and maintain, you could build a rig for the price of a bull bar and a new set of tyres for the tow rig

the formula is cheap to allow a different array of people into the comp scene as an entry level and those of us who compete it other comps a cheap alternative and another bunch of comps in the very lacking nsw comp scene with the veiw to expand to to other states

right looks like I need to start looking for a NT Sierra

if something like this started up and vehicles were kept as close to stock as possible id consider compeeting. Id open it to registered vehicle as long as they complied with the saftey requirements

limits must be made on tyre size and stock diffs. Id allow transfer gears and other suzuki transfers.

could get a comp rig set up for less than $2k and if multiple drivers is allower then it becomes very to get into .


Im in if it happens and is run in vic.

I'd look at doing it, if it was kept simple. stock diff's . stock suspension design. stock motor . 31" tyres ( maybe get Kumho & speedy on board for control tyre ? ) maybe even control gears, etc...
Starting to see the dollars rolling
When writing up rules best to list what can be changed. If its not on the list than must remain unchanged from manufactured from Suzuki.
Maybe 1.0 diffs for 1.0 engines only & 1.3 with nt diffs only. No mixing. SWB only. 2cents

doing some more thinking, and I think there will a few guys running WT now that would like to compete if the safety regs didn't prevent a registered car running.

That being the case, it would be a shame to exclude them if they wanted to beat on a WT, so how about this-

Set a maximum width - if we say a 4" backspaced 7" rim on a WT, that would allow a stock 7" rim on a WT, and an offset rim on a NT. Easy enough to check with a tape measure.

No penalty for a NT then.

I would try and avoid doubletuffs etc as they are pricey and really start adding the $$$ if you add rear diffs in the front etc.

I agree stop it at 31" or there will be too much breakage and the extra 1" of clearance will not make much difference on a comp course where ruts aren't the issue.

I think that in relation to classes- two classes only but the same rules - road reg or trailer.

obviously road reg guys can't hit it as hard.

simple rule - if it arrives on a trailer, plates or not, it is trailer. If it drives in, it is road reg. simple.

Yes I too can see problems with this, but I can't stress enough that keeping it simple and easy to run (and understand) is far better than trying to appease all the whingers. If they don't like it, don't compete.

Personally, I would not permit winching. Winching massively increases the risks and reduces the skill. sierras are really easy to recover so there is no need for the stuck/broken car to assist the recovery. A decent winch setup would almost double the cost of a car setup at a low level.

Steve.

I remember reading about a Swedish Budget rally comp, where a limit of say, $2500 is set.
Each car Build value is not meant to exceed that amount.
If someone suspects that more than that amount has been spent on it they can protest by buying the car. The owner must sell for that amount. This stops people from spending more on they're cars because they loose out in the deal.
It can also sporn a mini industry for people who can build good cheap cars.
This would be a good way to keep a cap on spending.
Just a thought.

keep it coming guys, might sit down and get something down on paper 2moz and submit for comment

THEN build a rig

There never seems to be a level playing field .

For my 2c

Limit your tire to 31" width dosn't matter , diffs don't matter

you ever run 31s on cruiser diffs , like driving a vucunm cleaner hehe.
No shaving allowed , no portals,.

No manual lockers , eg ,air , cable ,vacumn.

Once you limit the tires size the motor becomes even more irrelivent ,
a v6 with cruiser diffs on 31s would get pooped on by a 1 ltr with gearing and stock diffs on 31s, it would have probly 3" extra pumkin clearance.

To make it cheap you need to cull the costly items , eg big tires, air lockers ,

suspension is always hard to limit , so the easest way is to have a chassis rail height from the ground limit .

leaf springs or coils , NO air or hydrolics . this leaves a little space for injunuity.


Mainly this would allow most to compete in the class by changing there ride hieght and tire size ,

not sure but i think you could let selectable lockers run , but they must be set in either lock or unlock at the start of competition.
This way they would only be only as good as a welded or open diff .

the only costly item i can see is gearing,

sounds like a ball of fun , and to be fair i think leaving motor gearbox and tranfer open to any mods would even up the dollar builds ,
a bloke might not have a spare $1000 for transfer gears , but he might have an extra transfer case and a welder in his shed

Just some thoughts

Zute wrote:I remember reading about a Swedish Budget rally comp, where a limit of say, $2500 is set.
Each car Build value is not meant to exceed that amount.
If someone suspects that more than that amount has been spent on it they can protest by buying the car. The owner must sell for that amount. This stops people from spending more on they're cars because they loose out in the deal.
It can also sporn a mini industry for people who can build good cheap cars.
This would be a good way to keep a cap on spending.
Just a thought.

The 'protest buy' works well for many controled formulas
Much like as you stated, if you think that guys is going better because he is cheating, buy his car
The idea is that you can sneak big dollar mods into the rig but whats the point when an excessive advantage would likely mean that you will loose the dollars spent and the rig

my thoughts (some stolen) on rules:

First Important Rule: All competitors must compete within the spirit of the category
It's a bit of wishy washy rule but what it there for is to ensure the category does not become a battle of the bucks and cheats. (V8's introduced this rule years ago to stop Larry cheating within the rules by interpretation)

Second Important Rule: All parts are standard Suzuki Sierra unless otherwise specified

Specs
CHASSIS: SWB Suzuki
Rails must be original length
No chassis narrowing
All original crossmembers

CAGE: Single six point design for full bodied rigs, you purchase either plans, kit or full cage from a single supplier that meets CCDA and Cams specs. Six point cage must be used true to the design however additional bar work is permitted (eg radiator hoop, intrusions bars etc) Buggies use this same frame as a base and add additional barwork as desired. Buggies must run a tin roof, firewall and floor

TYRES: 31 x 10 max to keep costs down maybe a controlled tyre (series sponsor)

RIMS; Open (maybe look at speedy or the like as a sponsor. Also need to be careful of open specs as they are grey areas which lead to debates and accusations. So in this example you would stipulate several manufactures and part numbers)
ENGINE: 1.0 or 1.3. No internal mods (cam, pistons, bores etc) External mods allowed External mods allowed. No forced induction

GEARBOX: Suzuki five speed manual only (no Autos)

TRANSFER: Stock Suzuki
Mixing 1.0 & 1.3 components permitted eg 1.3 with 1l transfer
Transfer must maintain original design (No rocklobsters)

Diffs: Suzuki, NT or WT, Open, shimmed lsd or welded centres, Track must not exceed ??? [???=NT+(tyre-widest offset rim) ie. max width of a NT within the rules]
Suzuki Drive shafts

SUSPENSION
As per original chassis design ie leaf or coil
All standard mounting points must be used as originaly intended
All original mechanics must be retained
Wrap bars permited
Panhard bars permited
No custom links other than thoses specified
Sway bars are not required

Brakes
Front: Suzuki disc or drum
Vitara rotors and calipers allowed
Rear: Suzuki disc or drum
No drum to disc conversions allowed
Vehicles must have a working emergency brake
Skid brakes are permitted but origin system must remain operable


STEERING: Standard 1.0 or 1.3 Suzuki or Jimny Power Steering with Vitara Pump. No hydraulic or hydro assist steering permitted. Must be a mechanical link from steering wheel to tie rods. Steering rods are free. Hi steer is allowed

WEIGHT: All vehicles compete to a minimum weight to make things even between bodies and buggies.
Buggies may carry ballast weights
Ballasts must be mounted in approved positions only
Minimum weight is dry weight

No winches
Two recovery points on front and rear
Two fire extinguishers
Four point harness minimum
Approved race seat (no passenger car seats)
Window net
Wrist strap
Electrical isolator
Fuel cell with the roll over thingo that whats his name mentioned


Comp
Six rounds, two months apart each
Two NSW, Two VIC, Two QLD
Where possible explore opportunities to use existing events
Courses are mainly rock crawling but may also include other types such as drag or mud type courses

Individual:
Can cross enter as both driver and navi
Points are awarded to the individual driver only at each round (navis do not get points)

Clubs:
Each club prepares one vehicle
Club members may only compete once per season as either driver or navi to encourage club participation not just one or tow individuals from a club
Points are awarded to the vehicle at each round


Rules will take forever to sort out. Best to look as some other categories and borrow where possible. It's likely that many of the components will need to be listed by Suzuki prt number to ensure compliance and to keep costs down
Give me and Tiny some time and we will post up a draft set of rules
Suppose that’s the best place to start
Wont be getting nothing done in a hurry though, too busy
Then build one or two and see where it goes