Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hi,

just in the middle of my land rover project at the moment and am considering an engine transplant while its all apart.

Current thinking has been either a lexus v8 or a holden v6 due to them being cheap to purchase. I would prefer to keep my LR transfer case, but could change to a different one if it was needed.

For the lexus, I know I can get a toyota auto and transfer case and was going to bolt the auto up the the v8 and bang that in the chassis, but I think there may be other costs to get the motor going on top of that.

For the holden, was going to get an engineering firm to convert the holden auto to the transfer, and the motor is nice and short so I wouldnt have problems with the radiator.

Which motor would you use? or would you choose another one? which motor would more likely to be cheaper in the long run? I would prefer to go auto if possible.

Or, should I keep my injected 202, and maybe auto and turbo that later on?

obviously all u lexus smokers dont enjoy reliability

Geez, they wouldn't be my top two choices.... but of the two, I don't think the holden v6 is even a contender.

whats your budget?
whats your plans for the truck in the end?

are you doing the conversions all yourself?

Get a supercharged V6
Hoppy

budget is as cheap as possible. The end product I want is something reliable and cheap to run, and something that I want to go outside and drive rather than driving something else. The reason for picking the lexus and holden motors are that they are relatively cheap and easy to find.

Problem with a supercharged v6 is that they are still really expensive over here. I could get a commy 304 for around the same price. I was planning on getting an ecotec and if I got tired of the power, banging an sc14 on the side of it. Im not going to bother with the series 1 or 2 motors, only an ecotec. Id really like on of them alloytec motors, but they are reasonably expensive. I have a small budget for now, and want to get the damned thing driving.

Doing mainly all the work ourselves (me and my dad) to keep costs down.

Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is the length of the motor and gearbox combo. I think an rb30et would be cool, but im not sure I could still fit the engine and radiator under the bonnet.

I could put the radiator behind the driver, but I would think it will get too hot inside with the full cab on.

CHOPZUKI wrote:obviously all u lexus smokers dont enjoy reliability

Never had a reliability problem mechanical problem in mine
I have a VY ute and after that experience there is no way I would go a commo 6

is anyone able to get me some measurements from a v6? I just went and measured a lexus v8+auto+transfercase (about 1700??) into the chassis and if I ran it then I would have a really short driveshaft.

looks at this stage im keeping the 202 (my preffered option) and turboing it later

Not a fan of the Commodore V6 at all, but I would have thought the length of a T700 behind a commodore v6 might also be a problem in your application?
I would have thought if you could get a 202 in you could get an RB in? How about a 1JZ toyota motor? I have seen these in hilux engine bays and these are a very short bay. 1JZ's are very cheap here and make good power (and are VERY reliable, until they geet overboosted and blow their turbos)

There are some trick C4 auto adapters around, I think these are quite short - could that be a solution? pretty sure I have heard of C4's behind lexus motors and in front of Rover cases.

PS, I'm not aware of lexus motors being unreliable, bu some will be getting pretty old and abused by now - came out in 1990.

just some ideas... flame away

Gwagensteve wrote:Not a fan of the Commodore V6 at all, but I would have thought the length of a T700 behind a commodore v6 might also be a problem in your application?
I would have thought if you could get a 202 in you could get an RB in? How about a 1JZ toyota motor? I have seen these in hilux engine bays and these are a very short bay. 1JZ's are very cheap here and make good power (and are VERY reliable, until they geet overboosted and blow their turbos)

There are some trick C4 auto adapters around, I think these are quite short - could that be a solution? pretty sure I have heard of C4's behind lexus motors and in front of Rover cases.

PS, I'm not aware of lexus motors being unreliable, bu some will be getting pretty old and abused by now - came out in 1990.

just some ideas... flame away

some good thinking there. I always though 1uz's were reliable as well?

Yea, the rb might fit in there, i have been meaning to find a vl to take some measurements off but havnt found one yet.

So, does anyone have an auto VL they can measure the engine length including and excluding the fan, and the length of the auto excluding the tailhousing?

Finding a c4 and adaping it sounds like a good idea. Maybe an option is ford v8? There are a few Land rover c4 combos floating around in newzealand. The challenge then would be finding them again

Cheers

EFI 5l windsor? whats the availability like?? as hard to find as a virgin lamb??

I'm not aware of jatco/rover adapters (VL commodores ran "jatco" autos) but there are plenty of other RB conversions around (pretty sure RB/C4 has been used in drag cars)

Obviously RB/Patrol auto/patrol transfer is an idea but might cause hassles with length, the centred rear diff and less farourable gearing.

Powerglide?

Just out of interest, why not a rover V8? not all that powerful, but well suited to an off road car, and length and compatibility is not a problem, and the sound..... the sound.....

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:I'm not aware of jatco/rover adapters (VL commodores ran "jatco" autos) but there are plenty of other RB conversions around (pretty sure RB/C4 has been used in drag cars)

Obviously RB/Patrol auto/patrol transfer is an idea but might cause hassles with length, the centred rear diff and less farourable gearing.

Powerglide?

Just out of interest, why not a rover V8? not all that powerful, but well suited to an off road car, and length and compatibility is not a problem, and the sound..... the sound.....

Steve.

finally, been trying to find out what type of auto VL's run for ages now.

Rover v8, 3.5's are kinda low in power, 3.9's people want way too much for. If I can find a 3.9 and zf auto to go in cheap enough, then yeah, ill go it

what moddel rover is it? an old series 3.

if the 202 fits in there would a ford 250 crossflow go in?
very cheep, reliable, and powerfull.

[quote="Turoa"]3.9's people want way too much for. If I can find a 3.9 and zf auto to go in cheap enough, then yeah, ill go it [/quote]

theres a guy on ORE who has a 3.9 + auto who said make him a offer and you may be surprised you never replied to him

James

Turoa wrote:If I can find a 3.9 and zf auto to go in cheap enough, then yeah, ill go it

A mate picked up a 3.9 and ZF combo for about $700 a few weeks back.
But he has contacts in the car sales industry and gets some ridiculous hookups.

Have you considered a diesel?
An Isuzu 4JB1T would be a nice easy fit.
Tweaking them isn't difficult either.

KiwiBacon wrote:

Turoa wrote:If I can find a 3.9 and zf auto to go in cheap enough, then yeah, ill go it

A mate picked up a 3.9 and ZF combo for about $700 a few weeks back.
But he has contacts in the car sales industry and gets some ridiculous hookups.

Have you considered a diesel?
An Isuzu 4JB1T would be a nice easy fit.
Tweaking them isn't difficult either.

yea, but its diesel. Yuck. Unless its one of them new style diesels. I like nice revvy motors. What would be the pros and cons of a diesel?

$700 sounds like a good price for a 3.9. Where do I find one for that price?

Turoa wrote: yea, but its diesel. Yuck. Unless its one of them new style diesels. I like nice revvy motors. What would be the pros and cons of a diesel?

$700 sounds like a good price for a 3.9. Where do I find one for that price?

Pros of a diesel.
Better fuel economy (up to double).
Better range (see above).
Less volatile fuel.
No plugs/wires susceptible to moisture.
Greater torque, esp at the low end so you don't need silly low gears.
Cheaper fuel.

Cons of a diesel.
Heavier
Generally taller motor (longer stroke)
noisier
vibrates more.

I'm sorry but I', lost as to how you think cheap, and a Commo V6 of Lexus V8 are a matching set? These two engines wouldn't know fuel economy if jumped out of tree a bit them! Cheap to buy, yes, cheap to run, no; especially with 6 or 8 cylinder rego.

I'm with Kiwibacon, go a Diesel, spend more upfront, then reap the benefits later. If you did have enough money I'd be looking at maybe a Hino 4 cylinder 4L Diesel (can't remember engine number), these things have plenty of torque and reasonable economy for a 4 litre engine.

If I did have to choose between your three engines (GMH V6, Lexus V8, GMH 202), I'd go the V8; because its V8! Also those two 6 cylinders to my mind are two of the worst 6 cylinders Holden ever released. The earlier Buick V6's were plagued with teething problems, and they give terrible economy. The 202 Black motor was not up to its earlier red brother, as the engine block has really been taken to its usable limit. A fuel injected supercharged 186 with XU-1 cam might be some fun though?

Highway-Star wrote:I'm sorry but I', lost as to how you think cheap, and a Commo V6 of Lexus V8 are a matching set? These two engines wouldn't know fuel economy if jumped out of tree a bit them! Cheap to buy, yes, cheap to run, no; especially with 6 or 8 cylinder rego.

The Lexus is a very efficient motor. Mine with a heavy right boot around town averages 14L/100ks, on the highway its 11L/100ks and thats on 35s. Its no worse of fuel than my 3rz was so I dont know where you get your ideas from. Its actually better on fuel than my VY ute

Highway-Star wrote: I'm with Kiwibacon, go a Diesel, spend more upfront, then reap the benefits later. If you did have enough money I'd be looking at maybe a Hino 4 cylinder 4L Diesel (can't remember engine number), these things have plenty of torque and reasonable economy for a 4 litre engine.

That Hino 4L is probably a toyota 14B.
We've got a couple of 2 ton work trucks with them. A bit more refined than the Isuzu 4BD1 engines but probably harder to find and more expensive to buy.

I'd go something smaller for your average landrover. I've got a rangie with a 4BD1T, but the fit is tight and you need a better gearbox to handle the twist.

There is no comparison in efficiency between petrol and diesel. Diesel always wins.
Even comparing a crappy diesel to an excellent petrol, diesel still wins.

KiwiBacon wrote:

Turoa wrote: yea, but its diesel. Yuck. Unless its one of them new style diesels. I like nice revvy motors. What would be the pros and cons of a diesel?

$700 sounds like a good price for a 3.9. Where do I find one for that price?

Pros of a diesel.
Better fuel economy (up to double).
Better range (see above).
Less volatile fuel.
No plugs/wires susceptible to moisture.
Greater torque, esp at the low end so you don't need silly low gears.
Cheaper fuel.

Cons of a diesel.
Heavier
Generally taller motor (longer stroke)
noisier
vibrates more.

I don't know that, strictly speaking, diesels actually have more torque than comparable petrol engines, especially if you look at a reasonably long stroke petrol engine like a ford six, rather than at most V8s or V6s, which are usually fairly short stroke motors.

I'll go with you on economy though.

I don't honestly think that small V8s are good choices for 4WDs, although they are great in lighter cars. Virtually all V8s are inherently low on torque relative to their displacement because they have a short stroke, and this is going to annoy you imho. For me that rules out the lexus motor. A 5 litre V8 from a fairlane or something would just pass muster; any smaller V8 is probably going to disappoint you.

If you can actually fit a ford straight six in, then I think that would be pretty much a no-brainer as far as petrol engines go (given that you are on a budget). I would probably not go for a crossflow as they are getting very long in the tooth. EF-EL falcons are cheap enough as wrecks and you could get the whole shebang, ecu, engine, gearbox, loom, all at once. Probably scavenge a few other handy parts off the donor car as well. You will have the world's only S3 landy with Smartlock security

I assume EF-EL falcon wrecks are also fairly available over there.

But, the engine-trans combo is getting fairly long. How much room do you actually have?

If you are REALLY on a tight budget, leave the stock motor in and do nothing to it until you've got more dough and you've thought about it more.

Just my thoughts.

I was looking at a 4.8 turbo 4 cylinder isuzu from NQR? 115hp 480Nm, most Isuzu motors run the same spline as nissan patrol. I have 3 patrols with Isuzu clutch internals. Possably run a Isuzu 4 cylinder with gq gearbow n transfer, you will not need big revs with good torque off idle n they still do 4500 rpm

known 2 wrote:what moddel rover is it? an old series 3.

if the 202 fits in there would a ford 250 crossflow go in?
very cheep, reliable, and powerfull.

Its an old 2a, a ford crossflow would possibly go in.

i came back to this thread to suggest a ford crossflow. looks like i was beaten to it. long stroke = torque. decent fuel economy for what it is, takes to gas easily. parts are dead cheap. my last 2 complete runners i've got cost me nothing. conversion kits get around (i got a complete one for an MK patrol and a bellhousing to adapt early cruiser 4/5 speeds to one sitting around gathering dust )

nastytroll wrote:I was looking at a 4.8 turbo 4 cylinder isuzu from NQR? 115hp 480Nm, most Isuzu motors run the same spline as nissan patrol. I have 3 patrols with Isuzu clutch internals. Possably run a Isuzu 4 cylinder with gq gearbow n transfer, you will not need big revs with good torque off idle n they still do 4500 rpm

I can't find any measurements, but I'd expect that to be quite a tall engine as they're OHC.
The 4BD1 is a pushrod motor and even it needs front suspension work to fit under the bonnet.

I have two quite similar Isuzu gearboxes with different input and output splines. Manufactured about 6 years apart.

booflux wrote:The Lexus is a very efficient motor. Mine with a heavy right boot around town averages 14L/100ks, on the highway its 11L/100ks and thats on 35s. Its no worse of fuel than my 3rz was so I dont know where you get your ideas from. Its actually better on fuel than my VY ute

OK, fair enough thats not terrible economy (highway good at least), its better than the GMH V6 for sure. I just think that if economy is a high priority, then there are more appropriate engines, but if horsepower is desired, then for sure have the Lexus V8. Just to clarify I have nothing against the Lexus V8, I think it is an excelent motor.

KiwiBacon wrote:That Hino 4L is probably a toyota 14B.
We've got a couple of 2 ton work trucks with them. A bit more refined than the Isuzu 4BD1 engines but probably harder to find and more expensive to buy.

I'd go something smaller for your average landrover. I've got a rangie with a 4BD1T, but the fit is tight and you need a better gearbox to handle the twist.

There is no comparison in efficiency between petrol and diesel. Diesel always wins.
Even comparing a crappy diesel to an excellent petrol, diesel still wins

Yeah that engine I'm talking about is in the Hino Dutro, which is almost a Toyota Dyna; fair call in being too big for this application, but it could be done if you were keen. Thats why I agree with you on a diesel, the economy is good, and best of all for a 4WD application is the low end torque.

Highway-Star wrote:
I'm sorry but I', lost as to how you think cheap, and a Commo V6 of Lexus V8 are a matching set? These two engines wouldn't know fuel economy if jumped out of tree a bit them! Cheap to buy, yes, cheap to run, no; especially with 6 or 8 cylinder rego.

have to disagree with you on that one, i got 550-600km round town and 700km highway per tank on my stock vs v6 5 speed ute. 64 litre tank....sounds pretty economic to me

nayto wrote:Highway-Star wrote:
I'm sorry but I', lost as to how you think cheap, and a Commo V6 of Lexus V8 are a matching set? These two engines wouldn't know fuel economy if jumped out of tree a bit them! Cheap to buy, yes, cheap to run, no; especially with 6 or 8 cylinder rego.

have to disagree with you on that one, i got 550-600km round town and 700km highway per tank on my stock vs v6 5 speed ute. 64 litre tank....sounds pretty economic to me

Last place I worked at had two auto V6 commodores for company cars.
They'd use 15L per 100km around town. That was with me trying to drive them nicely.

Any petrol engine in a 4wd is going to drink a lot. More power gives you the opportunity to drink more.

KiwiBacon wrote:Last place I worked at had two auto V6 commodores for company cars.
They'd use 15L per 100km around town. That was with me trying to drive them nicely.

We had similar. Drive them around town in D and we got about 16/100 around town, but driven in 3 we got about 12.5/100 town.