Outer Limits 4x4 Board

G'day all



I have sitting in the shed a complete 3FE from a auto 80 series, in the future I want to swap it into my carby middy. WHat are the differences between a 85 3F and a 3FE





Does anyone know if my carby setup will bolt to the 3FE or do I need to source a 3F head ? also my manual gearbox should bolt upto motor no problems? Can i fit the 3FE electronic ingition to my 3F with some kinda of black box to control the distributer?



If I have to remove the 3FE head is it worth selling? Basically i got the whole 3FE injection setup, head, manifolds (inlet and exhaust) injectors, stacks of wiring, airflow meter, throttle body etc etc woulf flog it all off





thanks people for your help

cheers

Cob...head is thesame, electronic dizzy is fine, still runs vacuum doesnt it??
Just bolt it in...the cam on the efi is more revvy, but torque suffers, so my opinion is change the cam over while its still out....

why not keep the injection?

dow50r wrote:Cob...head is thesame, electronic dizzy is fine, still runs vacuum doesnt it??
Just bolt it in...the cam on the efi is more revvy, but torque suffers, so my opinion is change the cam over while its still out....

A 3F-E head is not the same as a 3F and will not run a carbi set up as a stright swap the inlet ports are shaped for the injectors.

Your best option is to pick a 2F block up and bolt the 3F-E head on that with the injection set up. All comes down to budget at the end of the day.

That way you get a 4.2 injected engine rather than a 3.9

The 3F-E also has a lot more poloution control systems on it but these can all be removed for more power http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/3FE-Desmog_Guide.pdf

http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=126976

http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=134529

hmmm SO to get rid of all the injection crap i need to grab a carby 3F head then is that right?

Turoa, I really dont see any real benifit to keeping the injection system. The only benifit I see is electronic ignition which I will figure out somehow. My car runs 99% of the time on gas, so I dont see any point in forking out the dollars for a EFI setup that wont be used at all, apart from a nice shaped inlet tract. Its all going, i'm happy with my carby setup (rebuilt works well the 1% of time its used) and the gas system. Just a fresher motor would be nice in the future

cheers

hulsty wrote:hmmm SO to get rid of all the injection crap i need to grab a carby 3F head then is that right?

Turoa, I really dont see any real benifit to keeping the injection system. The only benifit I see is electronic ignition which I will figure out somehow. My car runs 99% of the time on gas, so I dont see any point in forking out the dollars for a EFI setup that wont be used at all, apart from a nice shaped inlet tract. Its all going, i'm happy with my carby setup (rebuilt works well the 1% of time its used) and the gas system. Just a fresher motor would be nice in the future

cheers

Yes you will need a 3F head

hulsty wrote:hmmm SO to get rid of all the injection crap i need to grab a carby 3F head then is that right?

Turoa, I really dont see any real benifit to keeping the injection system. The only benifit I see is electronic ignition which I will figure out somehow. My car runs 99% of the time on gas, so I dont see any point in forking out the dollars for a EFI setup that wont be used at all, apart from a nice shaped inlet tract. Its all going, i'm happy with my carby setup (rebuilt works well the 1% of time its used) and the gas system. Just a fresher motor would be nice in the future

cheers

Mate....i thought the heads were thesame.....my opinion would be to drop it in as is, and make it dedicated gas...dont worry about the injection crap, just disconnect it and run a gas carbi. Its better to do this tuning wise....you want to run it on gas all the time for economy, so loose the petrol all together and fit a bigger gas tank....

dow50r wrote:
Mate....i thought the heads were thesame.....my opinion would be to drop it in as is, and make it dedicated gas...dont worry about the injection crap, just disconnect it and run a gas carbi. Its better to do this tuning wise....you want to run it on gas all the time for economy, so loose the petrol all together and fit a bigger gas tank....

Dont want dedicated gas, for those remote areas where I can get gas at all i'll be stuck. Duel fuel and a carby 3F head is the way i'll go and sell off all the injection crap


thanks

question....why pull appart a good runner?? why not sell it complete and rebuild yours?? I definately wouldnt try to efi your 70...the head is different, the cam is not the best on 3fe...so your looking at a head service on the 3f and a cam change....you might aswell put some rings and bearings in it whilst your there.

dont want my car off the road, was planning on having the complete motor ready to bolt in once i give the old one the flick. I'd used a normal 3F but this one came up so i grabbed it. Its done stuff all kms so no need for a rebuild. Might see if I can track down a head to rebuild and a new camshaft.

cheers

I would do a search for cam specs, see if you can be certian the 3F and 3F-E are different. Rather than pull the block down.

betta still donate the whole thing to me and ill put it to good use....lol

the 3fe in the 80 was the worst 3f ever driveability wise, the 3f in an 80 manual was heaps better..both had the best bottom end of all 3f's with water cooler on oil and stronger block. Because Toyota tried to extract more power with larger cam and bigger ports and ended up with heaps less torque down low and 5 more kw at 3300 rpm.....which is almost redline...the valves in the 3fe head are made of special steel, there are performance cams available for the 3f to suit gas ... 60 thou off your head would raise comp from 8/1 - 9/1 which gas loves also...then extracters and electronic ignition...

I dont have specs for a 3F but 2F and 3F-E look the same and I would guess Toyota used the same in the 3F but to be sure maybe some one has the 3F specs as I'm not a cam expert

2F



3F-E

dow50r wrote:the 3fe in the 80 was the worst 3f ever driveability wise, the 3f in an 80 manual was heaps better..both had the best bottom end of all 3f's with water cooler on oil and stronger block. Because Toyota tried to extract more power with larger cam and bigger ports and ended up with heaps less torque down low and 5 more kw at 3300 rpm.....which is almost redline...the valves in the 3fe head are made of special steel, there are performance cams available for the 3f to suit gas ... 60 thou off your head would raise comp from 8/1 - 9/1 which gas loves also...then extracters and electronic ignition...

thanks for that mate, was thinking since i cant use the head i've got was going to rebuilt a carby head with stainless valves, and a shave to get compression over 9:1. Will see if I can find some specs for camshafts too and slap in a better cam if the 3FE cam is so crap. Is the 3F/3FE valve train the same?


seaegle you can have if you give me a good 3F


cheers

dow50r wrote:the 3fe in the 80 was the worst 3f ever driveability wise, the 3f in an 80 manual was heaps better..both had the best bottom end of all 3f's with water cooler on oil and stronger block. Because Toyota tried to extract more power with larger cam and bigger ports and ended up with heaps less torque down low and 5 more kw at 3300 rpm.....which is almost redline...the valves in the 3fe head are made of special steel, there are performance cams available for the 3f to suit gas ... 60 thou off your head would raise comp from 8/1 - 9/1 which gas loves also...then extracters and electronic ignition...

The 3F-E was a dog of an engine mainly due to the anti polution systems added to please the USA market where this engine came out in the 62 Series, De Smoged it is much better but for the bigger 80 series it was just not good enough and only lasted 2 couple of years before been replaced by the 4500ltr engine.

damn you matt.mcinnes posting while i am, missed your info thanks. Looks like 2F and 3FE share the same lift, probably 3F too. You have any specs on durations and overlap? they might have been tweaked for emissions. I see crow do a cam for landcruisers so will try and get those specs

cheers

hulsty wrote:damn you matt.mcinnes posting while i am, missed your info thanks. Looks like 2F and 3FE share the same lift, probably 3F too. You have any specs on durations and overlap? they might have been tweaked for emissions. I see crow do a cam for landcruisers so will try and get those specs

cheers

Duration and over lap I cant say and this is where they might vary, try ih8mud for info but from what I have read in my effort to build a 2F-ETI I would say cams are the same with regards to the lift. But my rebuild will have a custom cam to suit.

Just lookin in my w/shop manual the 3F is exactly the same as 2F and 3F-E.how do i put pic on[/img][/quote][/list]

Mate don't bother with the 3F, it has the smallest journal beraings of all the F motors. By the time you finish rooting around you could of done a v8 conversion and never looked back, but its up to you if you want to persist with an underpowered boat anchor POS motor.

I would try and sell the whole thing and put the money towards a descent engine converion, and every 3f i know of that has been played with doesn't last very long normally shitting the bottom end with and allmighty bang, and i say good riddens to that.

i know this from experience, first engine was shaved, ported + polished, changed cam to suit shaved head, double valve springs, pretty much all new internals and 15,000 k later bottom end let go and that had had new bearings and a crank grind prior to this happening.

Next engine was pretty much stock i supercharged it with a sc14 and once again it blew the bottom end bearings out as this shite motors can't handle pressure.

Ben

Have to agree with Evil 73 here a 3F is not suited to been worked though a stright swap is no issue.

Mark W
In the case of the 3F, the short rod and short bore already put a lot of stress on the piston skirt. The piston drops out of the bore, almost to the pin. The rod is at a sharp angle when the crank is at 90* from TDC/BDC. Any shortening of the rod will only increase this angle/stress.
I've shattered two different pistons (skirts) in 3FEs from too much RPM. A cammed 3FE likes to turn up nicely. But the pistons can't take what the rest of the motor wants to do. Keep it below 5000. Factory redline of 4500 is not a bad idea.

I am actually more comfortable with a 2F at this RPM range than I am with a 3F. The much longer rod and longer bore eliminate this particular weakness. Achilles heel of the 2F is the rod bolts. These can be upgraded. The rod and bore of the 3F can not be changed

I'm not looking for more power or any crap like that, stock motor is plenty of grunt in the bush once into low range. I dont care that its slow as on teh road. Just want to bring the motor to stock carby spec and drop it in. Just the rings on my motor will die, and its using abit of water. So i'm getting in early putting together a good stocko runner and gonna slap it in.

Just need a 3F carby head to bolt onto it, bottom end only has jsut over 100,000km on it so i'm not worried about that. All i might have to do is swap in a stock 3F or gas cam. NO dreams of performance here, i've got a hemi for that hmmmm 265 hemi'd l'cruiser that'd be alright....



thanks for your help cheers

P.S if i had a good 3F carby i'd jsut slap it in straight away, jsut i came across the injected motor so thats what i've got to work with

Evil 73 wrote:Mate don't bother with the 3F, it has the smallest journal beraings of all the F motors. By the time you finish rooting around you could of done a v8 conversion and never looked back, but its up to you if you want to persist with an underpowered boat anchor POS motor.

I would try and sell the whole thing and put the money towards a descent engine converion, and every 3f i know of that has been played with doesn't last very long normally shitting the bottom end with and allmighty bang, and i say good riddens to that.

i know this from experience, first engine was shaved, ported + polished, changed cam to suit shaved head, double valve springs, pretty much all new internals and 15,000 k later bottom end let go and that had had new bearings and a crank grind prior to this happening.

Next engine was pretty much stock i supercharged it with a sc14 and once again it blew the bottom end bearings out as this shite motors can't handle pressure.

Ben

In that case if you want a 3f head to put on ya junk i have 2x spare ones in my shed, they have off there motors for a couple of years now so they probably need new valve guide seals, but if your doing head work you will do this anyway. Both of the heads have hardened valves for gas.

If you want one it will cost you $250 or you could give me $2500 and you can buy my 1UZFE conversion complete except for transfer case.

Ben

Evil 73 wrote:In that case if you want a 3f head to put on ya junk i have 2x spare ones in my shed, they have off there motors for a couple of years now so they probably need new valve guide seals, but if your doing head work you will do this anyway. Both of the heads have hardened valves for gas.

If you want one it will cost you $250 or you could give me $2500 and you can buy my 1UZFE conversion complete except for transfer case.

Ben

I already told him to pm you, as I know you such a love for the 3F and would have one or more around.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

hulsty wrote:damn you matt.mcinnes posting while i am, missed your info thanks. Looks like 2F and 3FE share the same lift, probably 3F too. You have any specs on durations and overlap? they might have been tweaked for emissions. I see crow do a cam for landcruisers so will try and get those specs

cheers

Duration and over lap I cant say and this is where they might vary, try ih8mud for info but from what I have read in my effort to build a 2F-ETI I would say cams are the same with regards to the lift. But my rebuild will have a custom cam to suit.

This is the valve timing difference between a 2F and a 3F-E maybe that helps

ahA!

well for all those that like it simple its like this:

3FE 2F
Inlet duration (deg) 250 250
Exhaust Duration (deg) 250 250
overlap TDC (deg) 32 32
overlap BDC (deg) 108 108
Inlet lift (mm) 38.4 38.3


2F cam is the same as a 3FE cam
Only difference being a 3FE cam
is 5 degrees retarded.


I'm pretty sure thats how the drawing is interrupted. So if I advance my cam 5 degrees i'll be back to hows it supposed to be. Might even gain some more if i advance it abit more too

thanks matt

cheers

hulsty wrote:ahA!

well for all those that like it simple its like this:

3FE 2F
Inlet duration (deg) 250 250
Exhaust Duration (deg) 250 250
overlap TDC (deg) 32 32
overlap BDC (deg) 108 108
Inlet lift (mm) 38.4 38.3


2F cam is the same as a 3FE cam
Only difference being a 3FE cam
is 5 degrees retarded.


I'm pretty sure thats how the drawing is interrupted. So if I advance my cam 5 degrees i'll be back to hows it supposed to be. Might even gain some more if i advance it abit more too

thanks matt

cheers

All that studying is paying off, no worries mate