Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi folks!

I'm in the market for a new diesel dualcab 4x4 ute, and I'm interested in anyone's comments if you're driving or have driven the current model diesel Hilux, Rodeo, Navara, Triton or Mazda/Ford. They are 2.5-3.2litre capacities and develop similar power (around 120KW give or take), BUT the max torque/RPM differs.

Interestingly the Navara has the smallest engine but matches the highest power (126kw) and makes the most torque (403nM@2000rpm). Suggests it is running higher compression ratio or boost, I'm wondering what the implications are for longevity of the engine.

This vehicle would be a day-to-day farm hack, and family weekend runabout which would include towing a horsefloat or 6m aluminium boat. I would expect to keep it for around 5yrs/150,000km+. It's replacing a 2.8 diesel Rodeo LT Sports.

Due to my location it's not always practical for me to visit a dealer, and if I can they often don't have these models available for a test-drive...

If you have any feedback or experience it would be appreciated!!

Cheers!

australian 4wd monthly just did their ute of the year issue, maybe pick that up and have a gander.

thanks daveo, that would be a good starting point

Cheers

Work has a new diesel Hilux, it's an auto and I prefer manuals.

It does the job and will probably be boringly reliable, but the visibility in it sucks.

subie_man wrote:Hi folks!
Suggests it is running higher compression ratio or boost, I'm wondering what the implications are for longevity of the engine.
Cheers!

This is what I'm worried about as well.

I have a 04 RA rodeo DC T/D 3.0L. Goes well great fuel economy around town but runs out of legs out on the higway and fuel suffers becasue of this.

The D40 STX Nav is out for me becasue of the 2.5L engine, and you feel like your driving a F250

The new rodeo RA7 is nice but havent heard if they have changed the ratios to fix the highway problem.

The ranger / BT50 just dosent do it for me. I think there ugly and when you need to leave gaps between the bull bar and bumper ( if fitted ) because of front end body flex scares me.

That leaves the Hilux or the Triton.

I would have to say Hilux becasue of the reputation but the Tritons are nicer to drive.

I work on these every day and speak to customers about them and the Trion has come back with some really good reports.

Cheers Nick

thanks Nick,

I haven't got a brochure for the current Rodeo yet, so can't comment on the gear ratios - I have heard about the poor fuel economy on the highway as well. Like you say, hopefully the current model is better.

I forgot to add earlier that the Navara has a 6-speed gearbox, although I'm not really sure if this is much of an advantage. Power & torque increases aside, it almost seems a backward step that Nissan would go from a 3.0litre diesel in the D22 to a 2.5litre in the D40.

Cheers
Andrew

do you guys still have the D22 navara advailable? its getting on a bit and is less power then the comman rail motors but its still a good vechile dispite a few faults.

I'm looking for a similar car atm too.

I've been pretty keen on the navara's. But i'm looking more at second hand. I drove a 03 rodeo and navara and a brand new 06 navara (same as 03). The navara's have a very firm ride.

I'm not much help, but I'm keen to hear more opinions too


For the people here who do have the old model of navara, what do they think of them? are they happy or would you have preferred to have bought something else? I need it for work, towing the zook, everyday driving etc

Mark.

In my opinion there is no better value for money than the D22 STR navara.

If i was to buy thats what it would be, I forgot to but that in an earlier post.

Cheers nick

tweak'e wrote:do you guys still have the D22 navara advailable? its getting on a bit and is less power then the comman rail motors but its still a good vechile dispite a few faults.

we can still get them new, but as a runout model - stocks are becoming limited allegedly

subie_man wrote:it almost seems a backward step that Nissan would go from a 3.0litre diesel in the D22 to a 2.5litre in the D40.

Cheers
Andrew

I heard it was done to fit into european tax brackets. They have tax schemes based on engine size and 2.5L is one of the break points.

This is 2nd hand information but anyway:

From some people who own the dual cab ST-R Navara, they love them; but the rekon that for towing the standard rear suspension is not quite up to it. I'm talking towing boats, one of which (I've not seen it), is damn big.

I have heard one or two bad reports about the latest model Mitubishi diesel engines, however I'm yet to find widespread support for the poor reliablity claims. Might be worth investigating further if intested in a Mitsubishi.

Fathers work mate recently bought a new Triton (about 3 weeks ago) to replace his disco. He thinks its great because it was so cheap to buy. He says it has more go then the diesel disco did.

I remember reading in the RACQ road ahead about 3 months ago, a comparo between the 'new utes' being Hilux, Rodeo, Navara STX, and Triton (Mazda/Ford got ignored). Basically in summary they said that they all performed similar: the Rodeo was lacking some of the silly features the other vehicles had; the Navara and Rodeo had the nicest powerplant; the Navara's load limit was disapointing. Overall I think they gave The Navara tops, followed by Hilux, then Triton, and Rodeo; however they seemed to be hell bent on degrading the Rodeo becasue it lacked the modern creature comforts. Anyway thats the RACQ, not the best source of information for 4WDs.

If any of this woffling on helps, thats cool. I personally would buy the Navara STR, because I think it looks the best . But thats only a personal choice, and not terribly objective (I don't get modern car styling in general).

Excellent info, thanks for taking the time to write it up, highway-star

Highway-Star wrote:From some people who own the dual cab ST-R Navara, they love them; but the rekon that for towing the standard rear suspension is not quite up to it. I'm talking towing boats, one of which (I've not seen it), is damn big.

I will be towing a resonable sized boat, plus a horsefloat occasionally - this could be worth investigating further, altho' Nissan claims a 3000kg (braked) towing capacity for the D40 Navara, not sure what the D22's towing capacity is, and the Triton is only 2300kg in comparison.

Highway-Star wrote:I have heard one or two bad reports about the latest model Mitubishi diesel engines, however I'm yet to find widespread support for the poor reliablity claims. Might be worth investigating further if intested in a Mitsubishi.

Is the Di-D Triton motor the same one that's been in the Pajero for a little while now?

Cheers

I don't know much about the ute market, but I can give a little background on the Triton diesel.

The engine family dates back to the 2.8 diesel first released in the Aus Pajero in 1993. That engine is a reasonable performer with few reliability problems, but it's noisy and relatively un-economical. I've read reports of cracked heads, but some reports say it's common, others say it's not. I haven't read too many first hand reports of cracked heads.

The 3.2DiD was released in Australia about 2002 in the Pajero. Same block as the 2.8, with 4 valve head and electronic controlled injector pump - NOT common rail. At the time, it out-performed anything comparable from Japan - the 'Cruiser 4.2 TD ran rings around it, the Merc CRD also out-performed it. It has good power and torque (no longer as impressive - it's now just average) and reasonable economy - depending on the driver.

[Edit:] I'm not aware of many reliability issues with it. A few had overheating problems caused by coolant gelling. I haven't heard anything lately, but [/edit] we don't get many owners on OL - the Pajero Club Forum has many more owners, so spend some time over there if you're interested. I believe the latest version (new Triton / NS Pajero) has common rail injection - AFAIK, this is new (to Mitsubishi) so I guess this could be a reliability issue.

The current version doesn't have stand-out power and torque figures, particularly when you compare a 3.2 against a 2.5. It does have a good torque curve when compared to some competitors - torque rises sooner and hangs on for longer. I have NFI if this is noticeable in day to day driving.

The drivetrain (diffs/trans) is essentially the same as the Pajero has had since 1993. Regarded as close to Patrol strength, and quite reliable. Rear diff lock available ex-factory, but Mitsubishi LSDs work well so you may not need it. Check the price - I think they WERE ridiculously cheap, but Mitsubishi may have put the price up. ARB locker (RD110) available for the front, they're working on a model for the rear.

There ya go! Lots of information you probably didn't want - if you read this far.

ya, I read the whole lot, thanks Scott

this is all helpful info, cheers guys

I just bought a new D22 Navara STR as I like the shape alot better than the new D40. With an ABN it was 32990 plus onroads, so I reckon great value!!

thats an excellent price PK - I notice that the dealer in Mudgee has about 4 in stock right now, but they are asking $36,990 (could be less with ABN though)

Highway-Star wrote:This is 2nd hand information but anyway:

From some people who own the dual cab ST-R Navara, they love them; but the rekon that for towing the standard rear suspension is not quite up to it. I'm talking towing boats, one of which (I've not seen it), is damn big.
.

yeah the rear springs are crap and sag quite quickly. we had an extra leaf fitted. the spring guys do a lot of them.

to note: ive seen one vechile with different factory springs so they may have done an upgrade on vechiles after 04.

just read the 4wd monthly ute review.

d40 navara didn't do well at all.
won't say no more as to ruin it for u guys.

i'm about to get a new work ute, will prob be a navara unless i say otherwise. my main concern is safety and the room in the rear as i have private use on the work car and have 3 kids in child seats.

in my company we have 2 people with new diesel tritons, 1 with new petrol hilux and i with 1 new petrol i think navara. all pretty good cars, have driven them all. liked the tritons the best except Grimace centre console but otherwise nice drive, quite big in the back & plenty of power. the hilux prob is biggest looking with stupid wheelbarrow wheels, easily the most cup holders. steering felt vague all the time, plenty of power too (was an auto too). the navara i'm pretty sure was also petrol but had the 6 speed gearbox, plenty plenty power, brakes felt really spongy and thought i was going to run into things. best cool features like the fold up seats and looks lke a proper ute like the triton, not crappy like hilux

looks like i'll buy 4wdmonthly to confirm some things.


Cheers
Bluey

yeah I like the fold-up rear seats in the D40 Navara, and agree that the Hilux looks strange on the standard wheels! When are you planning on making your purchase, Bluey? Shame you don't live closer, maybe we could of gotten a better deal on two utes

First thing (well whenever I can get to town) tomorrow I'll pick up the 4WD monthly mag..

Cheers

would love to help subie-man, but my boss is paying for mine. and servicing, fuel, rego, insurance .....

can you tell i'm happy?

Bluey wrote:the hilux prob is biggest looking with stupid wheelbarrow wheels, easily the most cup holders. steering felt vague all the time, plenty of power too (was an auto too).

Cheers
Bluey

I've been watching this thread to get people's opinions on the various models. I get a new ute roughly once every 9-12 months (it's promotional vehicle to show a new range of canopies) and am due for a new ute now. Hopefully I can convince my boss that I need a 4WD ute and not a 2WD.

Currently I have a 2WD SR5 Hilux petrol auto which unfortunately has the small wheels (but lots of go). Just reading the comment on wheelbarrow wheels, I thought that I'd check the wheel specs on the various models offered by the different manufacturers. Most have smaller wheels on the base models and larger size wheels on the up spec models. However in the top of the line Hilux 2WD it does come with the small wheels the same size as the SR (base model) as oposed to the 4WD having the larger wheels. Not that this adds much to the discussion but a recent stat is that 79% of dual cab sales are 4WD (it appears that the discussion is based on dual cabs).

At present the decision on which ute to get relies on our stock of canopies and we have a preference for the Navara D40 TDi. This is mainly due to prominence on the the market as opposed to capabilities. So on that theory and the stats, hopefully I'll get a 4WD but it will be interesting to see what the boss thinks is the best vehicle to get in the end.

Pagie

subie_man wrote:Excellent info, thanks for taking the time to write it up, highway-star

No Problem, I can touch type with 2 fingers ; takes no time at all.

Hey Scott, I've only heard from about three people who were under the impression that newer Mitsubishi Diesels had reliability issues. I think big end problems were mentioned; however the conversation was mixed up with Mitsubishi, and someone who was Pee'd off about their Toyota Hilux with 5L motor, which cost about $4000 to get fixed.

I am pretty sure that I remember the same people saying that when these Mtsubishi engines go, they are quite painful to get fixed (painful to the wallet). Anyway, as said 2nd hand information, so I'm sketchy on the details.

tweak'e wrote:yeah the rear springs are crap and sag quite quickly. we had an extra leaf fitted. the spring guys do a lot of them.

to note: ive seen one vechile with different factory springs so they may have done an upgrade on vechiles after 04.

I was starting to get suspecious about these Navara springs. One bloke I know replaced his rear shocks, and claims that fixed the towing behaviour; although he only tows a tinnie.

i'm of the opinion that mitsi's are cheap peices of crap
local mechanics don't like them, to lightly built compared to toyota etc.

i don't know about the navarra shocks yet, havn't replaced any but the front ones do seem a little bouncy since the rear spring change.
towing behaviour....tinnie ? you wouldn't even notice it was there. more like a trailer issue.

Just found this comparison article on Drive.com

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Artic ... leID=38059

I have a '03 RA and find it quite good except for like others have said on the open road it runs a pit short but i'm sure the new 3.0 CRD has sorted some of that, and i'm hoping a new free flowing exhaust will help some of my problems with the previous diesel

new mitsu's and toyota's built in Thailand...
probably in same factory complex...

Rob

if it was me i would buy the 97 - 06 (i think it is) 3.0l turbo diesel hilux

Dad has got one and it files even with 33's on it

Can't comment on the other's, but i've got a STX navara diesel auto.

Of this group I wouldnt buy anything other than a Toyota or a Nissan, and mainly because of resale value, but thats just me and my honest opinion.

I looked into the Hilux, but the navara's 3 tonne towing capacity won me over, as I am often towing buggies and 4wd's etc.

I'm amazed at how well it tows, its a little slow getting of the mark from traffic lights (but this is with 3 tonne on it) but once it gets rolling and is at about 2 tho revs in 1st, it just keeps pulling away all the way up and over 110.

Really big long hills knock it around a little, but it does go really well and absolutely smashes my old turbo diesel 80 series for towing (and that was a manual).

The only criticism I have with it is how low it is ( the towbar has to be flipped up to tow my standard height car trailer) and the steering lock is pretty poor (not as bad as an F250 but still bad).

Other than that, it goes well, is quite for a diesel, is comfortable to drive & fairly roomy, and the auto is awsum towing.

I do wonder what the longevity of these new breed, small, fast revving, powerful diesels will be like compared the old school patrol and cruiser 4.2 diesels.
I think this is common to all these new motors from each manufacturer and i wouldnt be expecting 4 or 500,000ks like can be seen out of an older style 4.2lt diesel.

I'm pretty sure i'll extend the warranty to 150,000ks and trade mine in before it runs out just in case (its already got 30,000 on it in 6months), but i'd be saying that no matter what make I bought.

Sorry for the long essay, not sure if it helps ya at all, but it is real world experience not here say.....