Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Do you think that a LSD in the front or a locker? 85% onroad and 15% offroad. the offroad is some rocks and trails. i have a locker in the back.
97 sidekick (Vitara )

Locker.

You will always wonder if you could have driven the obstacle "if I had a real locker"

The 85%/15% thing is irrelevant as it won't make a difference which is in the front when you are driving on road with the hubs unlocked.

Just remember to swap to freewheeling hubs if you have a Grand Vitara or auto hubs, they might not like an LSD or a locker (unless you go for an ARB)

Steve.

safarikick wrote:Do you think that a LSD in the front or a locker? 85% onroad and 15% offroad. the offroad is some rocks and trails. i have a locker in the back.
97 sidekick (Vitara )

You can buy lockers cheaper than LSD's usually, even selectable one's.

I'm with Steve - locker is the way to go... i want one badly!

On that topic, sorry for the sorta hi-jack, but dont wanna start a new post with a similar question... Steve, you said that it doesnt make a difference with the hubs unlocked... does welding the front have any impact onraod with the hubs unlocked?

Would welding the front be a good option with free wheeling hubs?

Welding the front has no impact when the hubs are unlocked as the axles do not turn, only the hub.

Is welding he front a good option?

Not really. It makes the car a complete PITA to drive when you don't need the front locked but do need 4WD. (which is 90% of the time)

The car is almost impossible to steer off road. It is better if you have power steer because it saves the arms a bit, but the car still won't want to turn.

The fix is to get out and unlock one hub, which does work but then really lods up one CV and you get sick of getting in and out locking and unlocking.

even having 2WD low range (ie with a twin stick) doesn't help totally as the front tyres will turn together so it still doesn't really want to turn, so you have to unlock the hubs anyway.

It might be useful for cars with power steer and no easy access to lockers like the front of a jimny, but generally it is a bad idea IMHO

Steve.

I have welded F & R, It dosnt turn real good and without power steer its real hard to turn, But as far as im concerned I wouldnt have it any other way. I couldnt justify the cost of air lockers in my car whan Ive got four young Kids & a Wife. You soon learn how & when to turn your car with the locked diff. last of all a locked diff is more predictable than a LSD, You can always count on it to be locked when you need it.

In my mind it is one of the best mods one can do, If i had to pick one end Id pick the front all day. You will be amazed the things you can climb with the front locked.

Yeah cost is the issue for me...

I don't think i can justify shelling out for airlockers... I dont have powersteer, but find mine very easy to steer anyway - feels more like a weighty powersteer than a non-powersteer car (esp in contrast to a vitara when i drove that - crazy hard to steer!)

Anyway - is there a way u can do a welded front type thing that is reversible?

(BTW - really dont mean to hi-jack safarikick - but this could be an option for you, so might be worth exploring???)

jamespbeasley wrote:Yeah cost is the issue for me...

I don't think i can justify shelling out for airlockers... I dont have powersteer, but find mine very easy to steer anyway - feels more like a weighty powersteer than a non-powersteer car (esp in contrast to a vitara when i drove that - crazy hard to steer!)

Anyway - is there a way u can do a welded front type thing that is reversible?

(BTW - really dont mean to hi-jack safarikick - but this could be an option for you, so might be worth exploring???)

Get a spare center, weld away, and if you dont like it, get rid of it. Welding a centre is a permenant option. Not sure if you can get mini-spools to suit the front axle splines.

Layto....

jamespbeasley wrote:Yeah cost is the issue for me...

I don't think i can justify shelling out for airlockers... I dont have powersteer, but find mine very easy to steer anyway - feels more like a weighty powersteer than a non-powersteer car (esp in contrast to a vitara when i drove that - crazy hard to steer!)

Anyway - is there a way u can do a welded front type thing that is reversible?

(BTW - really dont mean to hi-jack safarikick - but this could be an option for you, so might be worth exploring???)

Get a spare center, weld away, and if you dont like it, get rid of it. Welding a centre is a permenant option. Not sure if you can get mini-spools to suit the front axle splines.

Layto....

No mini spool for front centres.

Go ahead and try it, but you have NO IDEA how hard to steer it will be. In reverse on a reasonable surface, the steering will just go hard to full lock and stay on the stop. The overspeeding effect on the inside wheel will drive it into the steering stop.

The more traction you have, the worse it becomes.

As I said, try it, but IMHO (and having driven a couple of cars with welded fronts) there are more disadvantages than avantages.

Personally, weld the rear. A welded rear does affect handling on road but you soon adjust, it never does anything odd, its just "different"

If that's not enough, try an auto locker in the front. These are pretty cheap but won't punish you too much.

Just my 2C

Steve.

Welded would be harder to steer then a lock rite yeah?

If the answer is yes then don't weld it! Mine with the lockrite in the front is hard as to turn and if trying to crawl then you really have to reef on the wheel! You do get used to it but if it's harder to steer then a lockrite i would say don't do it!

BUT aerenandmel seems to like it so just depends what you like! I wouldn't go unlocked again!

suzuki boy wrote:Welded would be harder to steer then a lock rite yeah?

If the answer is yes then don't weld it! Mine with the lockrite in the front is hard as to turn and if trying to crawl then you really have to reef on the wheel! You do get used to it but if it's harder to steer then a lockrite i would say don't do it!

BUT aerenandmel seems to like it so just depends what you like! I wouldn't go unlocked again!

When your lockwrong is engaged, it is teh same as a welded centre, but your locker can disengage and release the tension in the front end, allowing hte sheels to rotate at different speeds and steer the car.

Layto....

*Slight hijack*

Which is what I refer to as "reverse torque" - the amount of force required to unlock the locker varies a lot between the brand of locker and the way it is set up.

Now obviously, the amount of steering lock you have on will effect the speed difference between left and right wheel, and the amount of traction the wheels have on the ground.

To me, this creates a lot of variables in the feel of the car, which leads me to say that lockwrongs (thanks for that one layto ) are not really ideal in the front.

My guess is that the big lockright fans have never had an airlocker in the same application.

Remember, ratchet lockers are all based on the same original design, which was the detroit locker. The detroit locker was designed to work in the rear of 1960's muscle cars to make live axles and crap tyres hook up with 400hp going through them.

They were never designed for use in the front of anything.

Yes, they are better than a welded diff, and better than an open diff, but they're still miles from ideal for the front.

Steve.

I know there not ideal but there cheap! Was in it when i brought it! If it ever blows up or waht ever i would probably go an air locker just cause you can switch it on and off and steer at low speed!

i heard that a welded front does nothing to your sterring if you have powersteering is that true

FullbackNo1 wrote:i heard that a welded front does nothing to your sterring if you have powersteering is that true

False. A welded front makes the front wheels rotate at the same speed, so when you try to corner (therfore make the wheels turn at different speeds) the locker resists this, making the steering want to stay straigh ahead. That is why the steering is so heavy. All P.S. does is help take the load off your hands by lightening the steering.

Layto....

Gwagensteve wrote: The car is almost impossible to steer off road. It is better if you have power steer because it saves the arms a bit, but the car still won't want to turn.

Like I said.....

Sooooo...

I'm assuming then that even with an airlocker, when you have it activated it will still be a bugger to steer... but the advantage is when u dont need the diffs locked u can just turn it off?

jamespbeasley wrote:Sooooo...

I'm assuming then that even with an airlocker, when you have it activated it will still be a bugger to steer... but the advantage is when u dont need the diffs locked u can just turn it off?

yep

Something else worth mentioning. Even if you have hydro steering, so your steering is light as even with the front locker in, the turning circle will be rat sh*t still as once you lock the front diff, you stop it doing what it is designed to do, differentiate wheel speed to allow easy turning. Doing this will make the front end push. Just beacuase you have made your steering light as a feather, with a front locked it will still push.

Layto....

I agree with whats been said but as for cost when you buy a Sierra for 2 or 3 grand and then look at air locker costs its almost worth more than your 4by, I have power steering in mine so it helps but the turning can get pretty crappy, so I normally go back to 2Hi. But having back and front locked really does help when your in some heavy mud or doing some twisty rock sections as you really need the pull of both front tires to get you through something not just the push

This might sound 'sad' to some people, but if you want a DIY demonstration of what a locked front end is like, use lego. I made a lego rockcrawler (named couchcrawler), and it was a completely fixed drivetrain. Anyway I gave up on giving it steering because it just busted the lego bits. when I put a diff in the rear, and only gave drive to one front wheel (only own one lego diff), it worked adequetly. The most success came in keeping the locked drivetrain, but with no steering and just setting it down and letting it go. I gave it low traction home made wheels to prevent too much 'bind up' which occurs from the axles articulating.

When you give the drive rediculously low reduction and watch the vehicle very slowly crawl over things you can observe which wheels are required to slip and when. It was fun and challenging to build, and I consider it 'educational'. Your never too old for lego!!

That's awesome!

Can you take a viedo of it in action, youtube it and give us the link?

Or at least some pics?

jamespbeasley wrote:That's awesome!

Can you take a viedo of it in action, youtube it and give us the link?

Or at least some pics?

I presume you meen my lego thing. Its been destroyed, sorry. I've got it half built still, I can take some stills of its remains, and maybe rebuild it in some form over the weekend. Dont have a video camera, sorry.