Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hey wondering if is worth converting the rear end of my vitara ute to coilovers

Why do you think it would be?

What are you hoping to achieve by doing it?

It's alot of money for a component that you probably wont gain much if any performance improvements over using coils and separate shocks anyway. You have the room to mount the shocks and the coils on the rear.

i can't see the point personally but I'm sure I'll have someone say I'm stupid for saying that and I'm just a webwheeler or some crap

+1 on Grimbo's post.

Big question is WHY?
What do you want to achive with it, why coil-overs??

Layto....

i wanna race my vitara and heard they are better for that kind of stuff i am new to coilovers so i am not sure

Race as in high speed race? If so also remember that coil-overs could change your class etc. What acutal reason are you wanting coil-overs, more travel, better clearance for tight space?


Layto....

not really sure actually just want to do something different i want want more articulation

race your Viatara?
What does that actually mean?
What sort of events?

Have you checked the rules and specs for these events to make sure you can use them or that your vehicle will be allowed to compete?

I still don't see the point in the rear of a Vitara. maybe in the front with a straight axle vehicle for high speed stuff but you're still IFS so can't see the point in investing extra $$$ for the rear when your front end will be your limiting factor. Spend the money on beefing up the front end

yer that is what i am thinking but i still not sure wat i wanna do with the front end yet becasue not to worried about artculation i wanna do gymkhanas and rallies stuff like that

FullbackNo1 wrote:not really sure actually just want to do something different i want want more articulation

If you are planning on high speed racing, you dont want articulation at all You want travel to soak up bumps, but you dont want atriculation. When do you see a trophy truck, or pre-runner, flexed up at 100km/h on a dune. Make up your mind.

Layto....

FullbackNo1 wrote:yer that is what i am thinking but i still not sure wat i wanna do with the front end yet becasue not to worried about artculation i wanna do gymkhanas and rallies stuff like that

again, what do you mean by rallies?

Do you mean high speed stuff like the WRC if so then you are building the wrong sort of vehicle, try a Subaru WRX.

If you aren't clear on what you are building or what you want then you can't expect to get complete answers.

Also check the rules etc for these comps because you need to make sure your vehicle will be able to compete in them as many require vehicles to be engineered and road legal to compete. So make sure your mos will meet these requirements before doing whatever you are going to do

yer good point forgot about rules wat is a better way to get it to flex

Are you talking about the ute?

You need to look carefully at the rules you need to meet to compete. you have already chopped the body and changed the wheelbase so many events won't let you run.

The limiting factor for articulation on vitaras is not the springs or shocks but ultimately the rear A arm ball joint.

Bear in mind that if you move the coilovers inboard of the chassis rails you will stuff up your roll stiffness and it will handle lilke crap, especially as the front end currently has a very low roll centre and high roll stiffness.

Mate, it sounds like you are trying to build a car based on what looks good rather than what you want to achieve. Changing to a coilover and wanting to "race" means you really have to understand chassis design and setup. Lots of cars with coilovers in them have poor handling in some aspect of their behaviour.

Not only will you have to work with roll stiffness, also shock valving, oil weight, nitrogen pressure, primary and secondary spring rate, spring lengths, mounting angle, coilover length all have to be addressed.

If you acutally want to do rallies/gymkhanas etc you woudl probably do better with a stock OME kit in it- lowest COG, oh, and the front does all the work becsuse that's the end you are steering and the end that takes all the hits. That's where you need the $$ and the time.

My 2C
Steve.

FullbackNo1 wrote:yer good point forgot about rules wat is a better way to get it to flex

you just said in another post above

not to worried about artculation

and now you want flex? What are you after?

Coilovers don't automatically mean flex. A well setup conventional coil suspension can archive flex as can a leaf suspension. But flex isn't the be all and end all. Thee is susch a thing as too much flex. Traction is where it's at and this is usually from a well thought out suspension combined with lockers to ensure all 4 wheels have equal power being sent to them.

FullbackNo1 wrote:yer good point forgot about rules wat is a better way to get it to flex

WHAT DO YOU WANT? Flex/articulation, or wheel travel? Flex would be not very usefull in rallie/gymkhana as it is a side to side roll, wheel travel is what your would want, and even then, you dont need much for a gymkhana/rallie. Look how much a WRC rally car has!
Wheel travel is good if you want to hammer across big washouts and jump your car. But is a vit going to have the power to do this, and the front end will shit itself unless you spend some $$$ on it.

Sit down and think about what you want!

Layto....

ok well lets just put it down this way i wanna go fast in the bush

Jump in your car then, put your foot to the floor, and go for it then.



You need to give us more infomation than what you are.

Or-

Shoehorn a blown SBC in the front, worked powerglide behind it, straight to a trussed ford 9inch, tri-linked 4-link rear with fox coilovers and bypass shocks, with fox air bumps. detroit rear. Narrowed front with oversize a-arm IFS and fox coilovers. 35inch bfg muds.

There, what will go hard and fast in the bush and dunes. Though its not 4wd.

Layto....

sorry about this how hard is it to convert the front to solid axle?

if i knew what i wanted it would be great help i guess

FullbackNo1 wrote:sorry about this how hard is it to convert the front to solid axle?

do a search on here there have been a few threads about it. There are a few of them knocking about. There is a great thread just recently on here which is a few posts down http://carl.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=114694

But if you are going to go ahead and do this you need to speak to an engineer before you start and find out if it can be done and how to go about it. What state are you in?

It isn't an easy conversion but it can be done properly or it can be done incorrectly

Why do you want to SAS your vit now. You said you wanted to go fast. Therefore you need something that handles good, takesbig bumps and goes fast. Look at the offroad racers, pre-runners etc, how many of them have solid front ends. It you want something to hammer through washouts etc, build a beefy independant setup.

Layto....

Speed and articulation don't generally come at the same tome.

Speed requires a stable platform, suspension droop and compression with a high degree of roll stiffness.

Articulation requires less roll stiffness.

Example, your car will handle much better at speed with the sway bar attached, it will articulate much better without it.

If you don't know what you want to do with it, why modify it? Generally people modify their vehicle to do a particular task, without a particular application in mind you might as well go buy some neons, a pod filter and some immitation carbon fibre and call yourself a drifter.

FullbackNo1 wrote:ok well lets just put it down this way i wanna go fast in the bush

I reckon the fastest I have ever gone in the bush was in CJ's vitara (vitara #2) which ran full Calmini, & OME struts on Calmini spacers, 2" BL and 31's.

The front end just felt like it was never going to run out of travel, and it handled heaps better than a solid axle car. Felt very stable even in the air

You will struggle to go faster in the bush with a SAS than with vitara IFS if is set up right.

By nature, SAS is not as good at high speed, which is why the fastest desert race trucks (US trophy trucks) are all IFS.

PS if you really wanted to go fast in the bush you have just screwed up your weight distribution by cutting the back off the car, now you will need a coupe of spare tyres right down the back to keep the front end from digging in.

you also need to treat roll stiffness and travel seprately in your suspension - you need high(ish) roll stiffness but lots of loose, free travel. hat nomally means swaybars but low spring rates.

Trophy trucks weigh 3 tonnes but run 150lb/inch springs.... way lighter than in your vitara, but run 24+ inches of travel.

Steve.

Mate Ive had a SWB sierra on stock leaf suspension with EFi 1.6 and done heap of Gymkannas and fast (80+) driveing in very tight bummpy bush and had a blast! Didnt need or use coilovers!

Now im building a LWB sierra that will run coilovers in the front and I will be doing winch challange etc. in it. The only reason im going coilovers is beacause when I bought the ute the owner had already had it set up for coilovers, otherwise id be running Leafs still with good shocks.

My advice is go and do a full season of events and have some fun, then and only then go to coilovers IF you are finding its resrticting your results at the pointy end of the results! Unless of course you have $$$ to burn and then do the coilovers then give me some $$ too!

But mate you dont need them in a Vit you could put a turbo on your Vit for less than the stuffing around of coilovers!

There is no comparason between leaves and coilovers when it comes to speed and i hate to break it to you Remydog but 80kph isn't that fast.

Thats why it says tight fast bush! (Lowrange) EG Rough, Holes, tight turns, etc.

Not open stuff when you can get going at 120 plus.

Ive been in Rallies when we were doing 170 plus.

So yes that is fast too!

No Doubt Coilovers are far better than Leafs, agreed! Ive used both!

BUT

You dont have too spend lots of $$$ to go and have fun at an entry level and more so learn about race Driving etc.

Im sure a vitara will be fine to start a entry level comp!

Have you got rollover protection? Helmet? Harnesses? Race Seat?
I would put these in front of Coilovers.

This sport is fast becoming a rich mans sport, we dont want that!

Gwagensteve wrote:

FullbackNo1 wrote:ok well lets just put it down this way i wanna go fast in the bush

I reckon the fastest I have ever gone in the bush was in CJ's vitara (vitara #2) which ran full Calmini, & OME struts on Calmini spacers, 2" BL and 31's.

The front end just felt like it was never going to run out of travel, and it handled heaps better than a solid axle car. Felt very stable even in the air

I have been faster and higher and I've got to say that given what it is the lwb Vit setup properly is actually pretty good. As Steve said, the front end worked really well and it was quite predictable. It is not the ultimate rally car though by any means and it is also not a winch challenge or tuff truck. Accept it for what it does right though and you'll be pretty happy. If you want to persist with high speed in the bush then you may find a need for running a secondary shock on the front and maybe also on the rear depending on the weight now. But first please slow down and think through what you really want to achieve and if competition is part of that then look at the rules for the classes as that will determine what you ultimately build. For gymkhana type work you may even want to lower it and look at replacing the front swaybar and adding a rear swaybar. Tyre and rim selection for normal offroad work compared with rallying and gymkhanas also have different requirements.

just fit sum whacky shackles to ur vit it will fix evrything

If you're looking at running coilovers to maximise speed you'll also need to look at chassis and component strength. Vitara chassis don't like landing on their nose, i bent mine to the point where i couldn't fit my Calmini control arms in without doing some work to the chassis first.

On a Vit you'd want to look at, steering, front chassis section, lower control arms, possibly uppers, rear upper a arm just to start with.

I have looked at fitting airbumps into the front of a vitara chassis up inside the coil mount and think it would be cool for a car built for speed.

Lots of fab though.

Steve.