Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey Guys,

I'm sure there will be some whinging about finding answers that are already here in other posts - so I've already spent the last hour searching around.

My question is what is better? Have a front locker or a rear locker. I'm talking about ARB air locker because I want a manual locker (I like to be in control of when its activated). I've a Zook with 31s, Series 4 rockchoppers, 3inch spring lift. Its pretty damn capable, but i find that when rock crawling, i tend to get wheels spinning with the open diffs. I'm on a budget though, so i can't really afford to go front and rear (I'm not aware of any other manual lockers that would suit a sierra other than arb air lockers??), so I've been talking to people about what would be more beneficial, locker at the front or at the rear. I talked to a guy at ARB. He was all for rear. I tried to talk to the guys at BBM about it and the dude just said, he'd go front, its better for climbing. So whats the general thought on this? Is front better or is rear better?

I would have thought front. The front wheels encounter everything first, and i often find i'll have a front wheel in the air. The ARB guy reckoned that the rear would be better still since it has more weight on it, so more traction.

My mate has welded his front diff (hes in a sierra too) and it seems to really help him get around. He really seems to be able to do some stuff with ease. I dont want to go down that road tho.

I'm aware that the front affects steering, but with the slow speed this shouldn't really be a drama anyhow. Love some thoughts on this.

Cheers

i have a lockrite in the front of mine and has pretty much out done anything with a rear locker everytime alot of people told me rear but like you said the front encounters everything first and is most likely gonna lose traction first i chose front works awesome

x2 front

Air lock the front.
Weld the rear.

if you have limited slip rear, lock the front
if you don't....still lock the front

...if you weld the rear, won't it grab when turning on the road? (especially when on hard lock)

heh the old zook doesnt have a limo

Yeah, locked diff's arent good on road and I've heard that they're quite prone to giving in completely.

I'd love to hear peoples arguments for why they'd chose front over rear too

Q. When do you use a locker most?
A. Climbing Hills (downhill doesn't need power, level gound is easy unless you are rockhopping)

Q. When climbing hills how much traction is available to the front wheels?
A. About 30%

Q. When climbing hills how much traction is available at the rear wheels?
A. About 70%

Q. When one front wheel is in the air spinning freely, and the other is getting no power, how much weight is on the opposite rear that is supposed to push you forward and have traction?
A. Next to none. If one front is in the air, the opposite rear has next to no weight on it.

Q. How much traction does a wheel with no weight on it have whilst still touching the ground?
A. F All

Q. So which wheel has the best ability to move the car forward?
A. The one with the most weight on it, the opposite rear one. This is the one that needs drive.

Presto - Lock the rear first to get drive to this rear wheel.

If you still need proof try driving your 4by with only the front wheels (fun when you blow a rear uni) and see how far up hills you get, front locker or not.

Front lockers are good for lifting the front over ledges, no doubt, but to climb rutted tracks, the rear does most of the work. That's why Mr Toyota gets away (mostly) with smaller diffs in the front, they do less work.

None of the above applies for rockcrawling. Not my ballgame.

Paul

i got a rear in mine cause the lsd went 2 shit like they do!! but i found i liked the rear lock cause when ur got a rear wheel off the ground its still drivable and that i heard its alot easyer 2 break stuff in the front with lockers

It doesn't make sense to try and do all the work with the weakest part of a suzuki - the front CV's.

also, imagine a scenario where you need to steer but need the traction of the locker the locked front will make you suffer.

Re welding the rear - anybody who hasn't owned a car with a welded diff should keep quiet. Welded diffs are viable for sierras. Even when fully built, mine will still be running a spool rear and an airlocker in the front. I have had cars put years and years on welded rears, even DD's.

A locker in the front does help keep the front end down and will be very capable, it's just not the best option IMHO, especially with big grippy tyres, gears, and having to drag an open rear up stuff.

If you can only afford one, weld the rear and airlock the front.


Steve.

if in doubt lock both ends

i drive a 320rwhp commmodore with a spool in it and i wouldnt like my 4wd 2 be like that espically with the big tyres but its ur car!!! why not just do 1 cause really its only a matter of time be4 u do the other!! thats what i did done the rear first and im gunna do the front soon!! i go the bigger compressor straight up thought so i wouldnt have 2 change it later

Da Danga wrote:i drive a 320rwhp commmodore with a spool in it and i wouldnt like my 4wd 2 be like that espically with the big tyres but its ur car!!! why not just do 1 cause really its only a matter of time be4 u do the other!! thats what i did done the rear first and im gunna do the front soon!! i go the bigger compressor straight up thought so i wouldnt have 2 change it later

A sierra has maybe 40 rwhp. It's not comparable in behaviour. Leaf springs and big tyres really soften the effect of the spool and any effects of the spool on road are quickly adjusted to. In some respects they actually make the car better to drive as on the way out of corners the car self corrects quicker so you don't have to wind so much lock off.

The small ARB compressor will run two airlockers. The larger (won't comment on the new really big compressor) compressor is still too slow to usefully pump tyres anyway so i think the small compressor is ideal for lockers.

Steve.

another one

Weld rear

Locker front.

i would however say that if u daily drive the zook, welded rears take a bit getting used to and can be annoying in carparks and such.

I have a friend who had a tight budget to build his Zuk, he choose a rear lock right ( when it Zuk it's he's DD ) and get nice results ..

With time he swap the front axle to a D30 and buy a locke right for front .. now it's a pretty tought machine .. but he need to disengage front traction in the trail to get better steering.

I always recomend a front selectable locker ( ARB in your case ) but a DD had bad ( my own ) experience with auto locker ( aout of my ecuation weld )

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:Q. When one front wheel is in the air spinning freely, and the other is getting no power, how much weight is on the opposite rear that is supposed to push you forward and have traction?
A. Next to none. If one front is in the air, the opposite rear has next to no weight on it.

This is why you need it in the front

its not that noticable in zukes, the welded rear. with a welded rear bloody zukes manage to get everywhere. an airlocker front would make it nearly unstoppable.

blkmav wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:Q. When one front wheel is in the air spinning freely, and the other is getting no power, how much weight is on the opposite rear that is supposed to push you forward and have traction?
A. Next to none. If one front is in the air, the opposite rear has next to no weight on it.

This is why you need it in the front

So the one single front wheel with 30% traction will drive you up the hill, whilst the single rear wheel with 70% traction will do nothing due to the open diff in the rear, and the power going to the other rear wheel that whilst touching has basically no weight and no traction.

I'd put my bets on the rear getting me up there.

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:

blkmav wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:Q. When one front wheel is in the air spinning freely, and the other is getting no power, how much weight is on the opposite rear that is supposed to push you forward and have traction?
A. Next to none. If one front is in the air, the opposite rear has next to no weight on it.

This is why you need it in the front

So the one single front wheel with 30% traction will drive you up the hill, whilst the single rear wheel with 70% traction will do nothing due to the open diff in the rear, and the power going to the other rear wheel that whilst touching has basically no weight and no traction.

I'd put my bets on the rear getting me up there.

Paul

Bare is mind, when in this situation, 90% of the time, gravity will force the car to kick back and both real wheels will be touching with one front in the air. Hence, using 2 full traction wheels with one rear "some" traction wheel. With a rear locker, you are only using one full traction wheels and 1 "some" traction wheel, with the fronts being completely useless.

Rear 1st.

Bazzle

blkmav wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:Q. When one front wheel is in the air spinning freely, and the other is getting no power, how much weight is on the opposite rear that is supposed to push you forward and have traction?
A. Next to none. If one front is in the air, the opposite rear has next to no weight on it.

This is why you need it in the front

No, this is why you need it in the back. All the weight of the car is transfered over the back wheels, therefore giving far better traction, than being in the front trying to drag the back up with one wheel still spining. If it is in the back, it doesnt matter if the front wheel still spins.

id do the front first then go from there.
i have a locker in the rear of my paj and open front and in the trol i have a limo in the rear and locker in the front.

i find the front being locked instead of the rear makes the car drive up hills so much easier.

j-top paj wrote:id do the front first then go from there.
i have a locker in the rear of my paj and open front and in the trol i have a limo in the rear and locker in the front.

i find the front being locked instead of the rear makes the car drive up hills so much easier.

I find the locker in the back so much easier for climbing hills. My brother has one in the front of his trol, and I dont know how many times he has slid sideways at the front, nearly rolling because it was trying to drag the car up with no drive at the back.

midi73 wrote:

j-top paj wrote:id do the front first then go from there.
i have a locker in the rear of my paj and open front and in the trol i have a limo in the rear and locker in the front.

i find the front being locked instead of the rear makes the car drive up hills so much easier.

I find the locker in the back so much easier for climbing hills. My brother has one in the front of his trol, and I dont know how many times he has slid sideways at the front, nearly rolling because it was trying to drag the car up with no drive at the back.

And on a recent trip to Boonah the two luxes with front lockers crawled up a hill that the two rear locked runners nearly rolled on. The reason was the front locked vehicles lost no momentum and crawled up. The rear locked needed more right boot to push the front over as it had no drive due to a wheel in the air. This resulted in the lifted wheel hoisting sky high trying to throw the vehicle end over end. There are so many different scenarios there is no definative answer.

Make a choice and stand by it, you will end up with both ends locked anyway, but for me it will always be front first.

j-top paj wrote:id do the front first then go from there.
i have a locker in the rear of my paj and open front and in the trol i have a limo in the rear and locker in the front.

i find the front being locked instead of the rear makes the car drive up hills so much easier.

I'll say it again... it's pretty hard to drive up a hill with a broken CV.

The original question indicates 31's, and a 6:1 gearset.

that's too much traction and gearing to put through the front end to drag the rear up everything.

I understand the front first theory, and I have seen front locked cars in action - they are plenty capable, but it doesn't make sense to load up the weakest part of the car.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: I'll say it again... it's pretty hard to drive up a hill with a broken CV.

The original question indicates 31's, and a 6:1 gearset.

that's too much traction and gearing to put through the front end to drag the rear up everything.

I understand the front first theory, and I have seen front locked cars in action - they are plenty capable, but it doesn't make sense to load up the weakest part of the car.

Steve.

Steve brings up a point that I've considered alot with this, broken parts. However, I haven't had enough experience to know what the ol' zook will take and wont take. But yeah, I am worried about snapping stuff.

However, that said, it was brought up earlier about rear lockers causing the front to sometimes kick up a bit, which does make sense. This is one of the reasons for why I was leaning towards a front locker. I tend to find that I get front wheels in the air a bit and so I'm not terribly keen on getting them higher.

Gwagensteve wrote:

j-top paj wrote:id do the front first then go from there.
i have a locker in the rear of my paj and open front and in the trol i have a limo in the rear and locker in the front.

i find the front being locked instead of the rear makes the car drive up hills so much easier.

I'll say it again... it's pretty hard to drive up a hill with a broken CV.

The original question indicates 31's, and a 6:1 gearset.

that's too much traction and gearing to put through the front end to drag the rear up everything.

I understand the front first theory, and I have seen front locked cars in action - they are plenty capable, but it doesn't make sense to load up the weakest part of the car.

Steve.

I disagree, a front locker will prevent broken bits if used accordingly, it stops the shock load of a wheel spinning twice as fast hitting the ground with a sudden stop

I've had front and rear lockers for years, I find you use the rear ALOT more, BUT, when you need the front its mainly something that the rear doesn't help at all, mainly getting up ledges/trees/climbing ruts

Personally I think the front is the least used, yet the most helpful and find myself pulling on the front quite regularaly without the rear

The only option really to decide which one to put in first, is to put both in and work it out for yourself

Personally, I think the rear, if you a general 4x4er, but front for the technical stuff is heaps better

midi73 wrote:

j-top paj wrote:id do the front first then go from there.
i have a locker in the rear of my paj and open front and in the trol i have a limo in the rear and locker in the front.

i find the front being locked instead of the rear makes the car drive up hills so much easier.

I find the locker in the back so much easier for climbing hills. My brother has one in the front of his trol, and I dont know how many times he has slid sideways at the front, nearly rolling because it was trying to drag the car up with no drive at the back.

i found with the rear locker on the paj all it wanted to do all day long was aim for the sky.

I was talked into doing the rear of the mav first by the local ARB 'expert' and it made the car scary to drive up hills as it pulled wheelstands like you wouldn't believe. I've also watched many other rear locked cars such as 80 series etc torque up the front left the same way mine did. If I was to do it again I would go the front first. If you are so worried about breaking parts why not bite the bullet and put some hilux or MQ patrol diffs under it before you spend the money on lockers.

midi73 wrote:

blkmav wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:Q. When one front wheel is in the air spinning freely, and the other is getting no power, how much weight is on the opposite rear that is supposed to push you forward and have traction?
A. Next to none. If one front is in the air, the opposite rear has next to no weight on it.

This is why you need it in the front

No, this is why you need it in the back. All the weight of the car is transfered over the back wheels, therefore giving far better traction, than being in the front trying to drag the back up with one wheel still spining. If it is in the back, it doesnt matter if the front wheel still spins.

If theres so much weight and traction on the rear wheels you dont need the locker, you need it on the front where you have just lost 50% of the power

weld the front airlock the rear

or front locker first