Hey All
I'm trying to find out if you can still get the adaptors to fit a P76 into a 1990 4 door rangie. What started out as just a blown head gasket is turning into a complete rebuild and I don't think its going to be able to be done cheaply. The 3.9 had done about 230000 (well thats what the speedo says) - already replaced transfer and gearbox.
Yes if I had plenty of cash I would buy the 4.6 as suggested by a couple of RR workshops.
I have spoken to quite a variety of people/places, basically have 3 options - rebuild current motor, buy 2nd hand late nineties 3.9 or fit P76. The P76 was rebuilt before I purchased it and has good power/torque, but has a holley and would prefer to stick with the EFI. It is in my old 2 door.
Now I believe there are/were 2 different sorts of adaptors - the first just bolt through the inlet manifold into the head and the second bolt to the head first then the inlet manifold bolts to the adaptor plate. I am on the understanding that the top and bottom of the adaptors are not parallel due to the different angles between the inlet manifold and the V of the motor.
Does anybody have a spare set or know who can supply them. I have spoken to Davis, Graeme Cooper, Triumph rover and several others who all are unable to assist.
Then I believe there is also an adaptor to fit the ZF.
So who has successfully done this? Are there going to be more issues than I'm aware of (I know the air con lines will need to be changed due to different mounting position.)
Thanks for assistance. I'm based in Brisbane.
Cheers
Guy
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P76 adaptors to ZF and 3.9EFI
Moderator: Micka
You've become quite the search nazishakes wrote:rova centre in skye in melbourne I beleive was the place.
Search through my old posts. was quite a few reply's on adapting the EFI up.
As for the p76-zf again search around, it has been covered I'm too lazy too find the page but first stop would be rova centre again I do beleive.
Simon
Wanted: Car trailer or beaver tail truck, let me know what you got
LOL depending on the old gits mood mate ya might get lucky and catch him when his missus aint ruffen him up and he can be quite reasonable but get him on the other days and prepare to be patient.cloughy wrote:$$$$??????Hobie18 wrote:yep they have both in stock - cheers
All that said he does have a sorted array of the good sh#*
Good luck
Damo
have grinder will fit
www.4Bfabrications.com.au
www.4Bfabrications.com.au
cloughy wrote:You've become quite the search nazishakes wrote:rova centre in skye in melbourne I beleive was the place.
Search through my old posts. was quite a few reply's on adapting the EFI up.
As for the p76-zf again search around, it has been covered I'm too lazy too find the page but first stop would be rova centre again I do beleive.
Simon
Its ok I'd just have one machined, and I wouldn't bother with a 4.4 personally, but that's just me, just curious and what the cost is, considering the machining involvedUrbanRedneck wrote:LOL depending on the old gits mood mate ya might get lucky and catch him when his missus aint ruffen him up and he can be quite reasonable but get him on the other days and prepare to be patient.cloughy wrote:$$$$??????Hobie18 wrote:yep they have both in stock - cheers
All that said he does have a sorted array of the good sh#*
Good luck
Damo
Wanted: Car trailer or beaver tail truck, let me know what you got
I assume you asking the prices of the adaptors - less than 500 for both the inlet manifold and zf adaptors, then if you need to re-chip the computer 250
So next part of the question (and yes i've done the search and read through them) - how strong are the zf gearboxes, motor i'm considering fitting was dynoed with the following results, and this was before the electronic ignition was replaced and it was properly tuned
max torque 560ftlb@70kph and 139hp@102kph then motive force of 1.1lb@70kph (i have no idea what this means) - will the zf and lt230 handle this. this was dynoed on a dynolog chassis dyno
After the last tune it had it was up to about 170hp - is this going to kill a standard ZF gearbox - is about 20k since rebuilt and lt230 rebuilt last year
we are doing the measure on the 3.9 this week to see how bad the internals are so will know more after that - figure if i need to replace pistons then it'll be cheaper to fit p76 etc
So next part of the question (and yes i've done the search and read through them) - how strong are the zf gearboxes, motor i'm considering fitting was dynoed with the following results, and this was before the electronic ignition was replaced and it was properly tuned
max torque 560ftlb@70kph and 139hp@102kph then motive force of 1.1lb@70kph (i have no idea what this means) - will the zf and lt230 handle this. this was dynoed on a dynolog chassis dyno
After the last tune it had it was up to about 170hp - is this going to kill a standard ZF gearbox - is about 20k since rebuilt and lt230 rebuilt last year
we are doing the measure on the 3.9 this week to see how bad the internals are so will know more after that - figure if i need to replace pistons then it'll be cheaper to fit p76 etc
I have an injected 4.4 rover heads 3.9 manifold and injects with a wolf v4 computer , One thing is you will need to up your fuel rail pressure to 38 psi or they will run lean after 3200rpm.
Use P76 pistons not the holden flat tops (it cost me $1800 to work this one out ) caused a triple knock at 800 rpm.
If you want it to pick up a little quicker machine some weight off the rover flywheel you will have plenty of torque anyway.
been 4 or 5 years since i did it, can't remember all the issues i had with the tuning etc i know in the end it would have been a lot cheaper to do a 4.6.
Use P76 pistons not the holden flat tops (it cost me $1800 to work this one out ) caused a triple knock at 800 rpm.
If you want it to pick up a little quicker machine some weight off the rover flywheel you will have plenty of torque anyway.
been 4 or 5 years since i did it, can't remember all the issues i had with the tuning etc i know in the end it would have been a lot cheaper to do a 4.6.
want to go into a lil more detail on this for me?madrangie wrote:I have an injected 4.4 rover heads 3.9 manifold and injects with a wolf v4 computer , One thing is you will need to up your fuel rail pressure to 38 psi or they will run lean after 3200rpm.
Use P76 pistons not the holden flat tops (it cost me $1800 to work this one out ) caused a triple knock at 800 rpm.
If you want it to pick up a little quicker machine some weight off the rover flywheel you will have plenty of torque anyway.
been 4 or 5 years since i did it, can't remember all the issues i had with the tuning etc i know in the end it would have been a lot cheaper to do a 4.6.
Cheers
Simon
P76 (and rover) pistons are recessed.
Not sure why, maybe for piston/valve clearance.
The amount of recess determines the compression ratio.
If flat top pistons are used, then the compression ratio is increased.
This will also reduce valve to piston clearance.
Increasing the compression ratio causes quite a few problems if not compensated for.
Higher octane fuel is required.
Ignition timing is critical. It will ping it's head off, eventually causing holes in pistons.
Gas will run better though!
For a view of a P76 with it's head off, check out a the block picture from dramas I had a few years ago:
http://www.aulro.com/app/showgallery.php/cat/526
Not sure why, maybe for piston/valve clearance.
The amount of recess determines the compression ratio.
If flat top pistons are used, then the compression ratio is increased.
This will also reduce valve to piston clearance.
Increasing the compression ratio causes quite a few problems if not compensated for.
Higher octane fuel is required.
Ignition timing is critical. It will ping it's head off, eventually causing holes in pistons.
Gas will run better though!
For a view of a P76 with it's head off, check out a the block picture from dramas I had a few years ago:
http://www.aulro.com/app/showgallery.php/cat/526
Harry
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
As Ralf said yes compression which can be allowed for by opening the cambers out a little, But the main reason is the piston Gudgeon pin height on the holden flat is a little lower on the piston then the p76 one. Which was the reason behind this triple knock, As we had a programable ecu we tried +/- to both timing and fuel of 25% with no luck this moved the knock up and down the rpm range by 125 rpm only.
While at the dyno's a old guy walked in and over heard what we were talking about and said bet your running holden flat tops which i was and told him the drama we were having he then told me he use to race speedway with the p76 and had found the same issue a swap of pistons got about 35 % more power from the motor straight up and 27 degree of extra timing in the ignition map.
Not sure if the forum still has my posts from 4 years ago on it but i did come here for advice on the issue at the time.
While at the dyno's a old guy walked in and over heard what we were talking about and said bet your running holden flat tops which i was and told him the drama we were having he then told me he use to race speedway with the p76 and had found the same issue a swap of pistons got about 35 % more power from the motor straight up and 27 degree of extra timing in the ignition map.
Not sure if the forum still has my posts from 4 years ago on it but i did come here for advice on the issue at the time.
Thanks Madrangie, can I just clarify that you gained an axtra 35% power going back to P76 pistons. Pretty sure I already have that knock that you're talking about. Sounds like it maybe simpler and cheaper to stick to rebuilding the 3.9, and leave the P76 in the 2 door for when I get round to swaping all the gear to the donor vehicle.
I'm going to post a reply I got from another forum - for others interested:
G'day Guy
I fitted a P76 4.4 motor to my 88 EFI (flapper type) Rangie about 3 years or so back. I'll share my expereiences with you so you know that it is not the simplest of things to do- this may turn out to be a long post.
I got the adapters from Dave at Rovacentre. For the 3.5, they are flat plates 19mm thick that bolt to the block over the top of the valley cover with allen head bolts recessed into the plates, the inlet manifold then bolts to the adaptor plates using the original bolts. The plates are not angled- all the Rover blocks have the same V angle of 45 degrees- the longer stroke of the 4.4 (19mm longer than the 3.5) means that the heads end up further apart. The ports in the plates are huge compared to those in the heads and manifold- I borrowed a die-grinder and matched the ports to the plates (this necessitated porting the valleycover as well), then used locating pins to ensure that everything seated in the matched position. This was a fair job in itself.
You need to make gaskets for the spacer-to-manifold joint. I ended up with vacuum leaks here- the bolts that hold the spacers to the heads are well off centre in the plates, I think the bolt arrangement results in less than optimal seating of the plates. When I removed everything to repair the leak, I stripped all the paper gasket off my tin valley cover and used Z-bond sealant instead of gaskets at all the inlet joints, including both surfaces of the valley cover. No more vac leaks.
Anything that bolts to both the block and the heads needs to be lengthened by 19mm- I remember extending the power steering pump bracket, don't remember if there was anything else. The engine mount brackets have to be modified by cutting, drilling and welding. You need a longer power steering belt, also longer aircon belt.
There is an adaptor for the rear of the crankshaft- simple enough to fit up. I had the motor out twice to replace the rear main seal- the black ones that come in gasket sets (even good quality gasket sets) are useless- make sure your motor has one of the good quality red seals in it before you fit it.
I managed to bend my exhaust system to fit the wider (and higher) position of the manifolds by hand in a vice, took a few goes in and out to get it right.
Once you have everything fitted and modified, the real difficulties start. I'm not sure about going from a 3.9 to 4.4, but going from a 3.5 to 4.4 meant that the injection system could not provide enough fuel for correct mixture under load or at high revs. The standard system simply will not provide enough duty cycle length to the injectors to run the bigger engine, resulting in dangerously lean mixtures under load. I was ill-advised to have a 'UNICHIP' system fitted. The unichip agent spent many hours stuffing around with the thing over a period of about 2 months, and on my last visit to him told me that he was closing down his business- with my car still not running right. I went to another UNICHIP agent about 1 1/2 hours drive from home(only their agents have the tuning software) who charged me about $250 to tune the car- when I picked it up from him it backfired constantly on overrun, then broke down half way home. I removed the UNICHIP and replaced all the butchered wiring from it's installation. $1300 down the drain, plus one muffler and 2 airflow meters destroyed by backfiring due to the way the unichip agent had wired the system, plus $250 for a rising-rate fuel pressure reg to try to increase the fuel feed (don't let anyone try to convince you that this will help). The unichip agent tried to tell me I needed bigger injectors- $200 each. Eight of them.
I ended up removing the airflow meter, ECU and all the wiring from the fuel system and fitting an aftermarket system (SDS- 'simple digital systems' from Canada) that utilises the original fuel pump, filter, lines, reg, TPS, piping and injectors with the addition of a MAP and inlet temp sensor and a fully user-programmable ECU. Also fitted a mixture meter to assist in the tuning process. The original injectors do the job just fine, duty cycle is never more than about 72% so bigger injectors are not necessary. This system has been completely trouble-free for about 3 years, from the moment I first started it - I could not be happier with it. It does not offer dual advance curves and such, like the Haltech systems, but one advantage is it has it's own hand-held programmer, and I did not have a laptop at the time, which you need to program the haltech, motec and others. From memory I think the system cost about $1300, plus the shock phone call from customs telling me I had to pay $300 import duty.
If you are on LPG that will also have to be tuned for the bigger motor.
All up, my 4.4 conversion cost me more than what I had been quoted for a complete 4.6 conversion including all the necessary electrics. I guess if you have a good motor sitting there, that is a good deal of the money already spent, but be prepared for the costs of getting the EFI system to run the bigger motor. The 4.4 has heaps of grunt, but probably does not go as hard as a 4.6. Fuel consumption (the term 'fuel economy' seems out of place when talking about Range Rovers) is pretty much the same as the 3.5; I run mostly on LPG and get 320km from 76L. When i had the LPG fitted to the car with the 3.5, it always ran more smoothly on gas. Now with the new EFI system it is a treat to run on petrol- smooth as a babies bum.
I did warn you thast this would be a long post, and I haven't even talked about how the engine reconditioner stuffed up the piston-to-bore clearances and had to start over with a replacement block when the first motor exhibited pronounced piston slap.
Anyway, hope some of this is useful to you.
regards
G'day Guy
I fitted a P76 4.4 motor to my 88 EFI (flapper type) Rangie about 3 years or so back. I'll share my expereiences with you so you know that it is not the simplest of things to do- this may turn out to be a long post.
I got the adapters from Dave at Rovacentre. For the 3.5, they are flat plates 19mm thick that bolt to the block over the top of the valley cover with allen head bolts recessed into the plates, the inlet manifold then bolts to the adaptor plates using the original bolts. The plates are not angled- all the Rover blocks have the same V angle of 45 degrees- the longer stroke of the 4.4 (19mm longer than the 3.5) means that the heads end up further apart. The ports in the plates are huge compared to those in the heads and manifold- I borrowed a die-grinder and matched the ports to the plates (this necessitated porting the valleycover as well), then used locating pins to ensure that everything seated in the matched position. This was a fair job in itself.
You need to make gaskets for the spacer-to-manifold joint. I ended up with vacuum leaks here- the bolts that hold the spacers to the heads are well off centre in the plates, I think the bolt arrangement results in less than optimal seating of the plates. When I removed everything to repair the leak, I stripped all the paper gasket off my tin valley cover and used Z-bond sealant instead of gaskets at all the inlet joints, including both surfaces of the valley cover. No more vac leaks.
Anything that bolts to both the block and the heads needs to be lengthened by 19mm- I remember extending the power steering pump bracket, don't remember if there was anything else. The engine mount brackets have to be modified by cutting, drilling and welding. You need a longer power steering belt, also longer aircon belt.
There is an adaptor for the rear of the crankshaft- simple enough to fit up. I had the motor out twice to replace the rear main seal- the black ones that come in gasket sets (even good quality gasket sets) are useless- make sure your motor has one of the good quality red seals in it before you fit it.
I managed to bend my exhaust system to fit the wider (and higher) position of the manifolds by hand in a vice, took a few goes in and out to get it right.
Once you have everything fitted and modified, the real difficulties start. I'm not sure about going from a 3.9 to 4.4, but going from a 3.5 to 4.4 meant that the injection system could not provide enough fuel for correct mixture under load or at high revs. The standard system simply will not provide enough duty cycle length to the injectors to run the bigger engine, resulting in dangerously lean mixtures under load. I was ill-advised to have a 'UNICHIP' system fitted. The unichip agent spent many hours stuffing around with the thing over a period of about 2 months, and on my last visit to him told me that he was closing down his business- with my car still not running right. I went to another UNICHIP agent about 1 1/2 hours drive from home(only their agents have the tuning software) who charged me about $250 to tune the car- when I picked it up from him it backfired constantly on overrun, then broke down half way home. I removed the UNICHIP and replaced all the butchered wiring from it's installation. $1300 down the drain, plus one muffler and 2 airflow meters destroyed by backfiring due to the way the unichip agent had wired the system, plus $250 for a rising-rate fuel pressure reg to try to increase the fuel feed (don't let anyone try to convince you that this will help). The unichip agent tried to tell me I needed bigger injectors- $200 each. Eight of them.
I ended up removing the airflow meter, ECU and all the wiring from the fuel system and fitting an aftermarket system (SDS- 'simple digital systems' from Canada) that utilises the original fuel pump, filter, lines, reg, TPS, piping and injectors with the addition of a MAP and inlet temp sensor and a fully user-programmable ECU. Also fitted a mixture meter to assist in the tuning process. The original injectors do the job just fine, duty cycle is never more than about 72% so bigger injectors are not necessary. This system has been completely trouble-free for about 3 years, from the moment I first started it - I could not be happier with it. It does not offer dual advance curves and such, like the Haltech systems, but one advantage is it has it's own hand-held programmer, and I did not have a laptop at the time, which you need to program the haltech, motec and others. From memory I think the system cost about $1300, plus the shock phone call from customs telling me I had to pay $300 import duty.
If you are on LPG that will also have to be tuned for the bigger motor.
All up, my 4.4 conversion cost me more than what I had been quoted for a complete 4.6 conversion including all the necessary electrics. I guess if you have a good motor sitting there, that is a good deal of the money already spent, but be prepared for the costs of getting the EFI system to run the bigger motor. The 4.4 has heaps of grunt, but probably does not go as hard as a 4.6. Fuel consumption (the term 'fuel economy' seems out of place when talking about Range Rovers) is pretty much the same as the 3.5; I run mostly on LPG and get 320km from 76L. When i had the LPG fitted to the car with the 3.5, it always ran more smoothly on gas. Now with the new EFI system it is a treat to run on petrol- smooth as a babies bum.
I did warn you thast this would be a long post, and I haven't even talked about how the engine reconditioner stuffed up the piston-to-bore clearances and had to start over with a replacement block when the first motor exhibited pronounced piston slap.
Anyway, hope some of this is useful to you.
regards
Tomorrow when i have time i will sit down i post up what it cost me with all the mistake verse what i know now. when i did it there was lots of theories and most sound good when they are not using your money. The motor i have is a stump puller and knowing now what is required is a lot cheaper then trying to work it out.
A 4.4 is a square motor and a good platform to work on. the vacuum leaks the above post spoke of i never had but there again my adapters where the first set Toorak Tractor made, after market cpu is the way to go wolf has one of the best setup going for price ( around $1500 ) you will have to wire it in yourself good diagrams and if you take your time it is pretty easy. You will need a 120 amp landrover alternator i tried a few other brands a waste of money and high pressure fuel pumps and new lines ( this is if your going from carby to EFI). lastly dyno tuning which depends on the shop u take it to verses how much it will cost you. To fit rover heads you need to drill the oil gallery hole thru the leyland block pretty easy with a mill. Use ford cortina engine mount which will lower the motor 10 mm so the bonnet doesn't hit. There is some other things like phrasing the dizzy in ( welding it up and removing mechanical advancement ) the wolf EMS takes care of it all.
just a few things i remember off hand
oh the running lean issues he had up the fuel pressure to 38 psi fixed it, and also the wolf does away with airflow meters etc so no chance of destroying them with back firing.
A 4.4 is a square motor and a good platform to work on. the vacuum leaks the above post spoke of i never had but there again my adapters where the first set Toorak Tractor made, after market cpu is the way to go wolf has one of the best setup going for price ( around $1500 ) you will have to wire it in yourself good diagrams and if you take your time it is pretty easy. You will need a 120 amp landrover alternator i tried a few other brands a waste of money and high pressure fuel pumps and new lines ( this is if your going from carby to EFI). lastly dyno tuning which depends on the shop u take it to verses how much it will cost you. To fit rover heads you need to drill the oil gallery hole thru the leyland block pretty easy with a mill. Use ford cortina engine mount which will lower the motor 10 mm so the bonnet doesn't hit. There is some other things like phrasing the dizzy in ( welding it up and removing mechanical advancement ) the wolf EMS takes care of it all.
just a few things i remember off hand
oh the running lean issues he had up the fuel pressure to 38 psi fixed it, and also the wolf does away with airflow meters etc so no chance of destroying them with back firing.
base motor rebuild ( first time ) $3000 including heads
Short motor with leyland pistons (includes machining) $1200
Adapters ( engine swapped for them free ) normal $350
Inlet manifold $150 with injectors and fuel rail
air filter box $50
Wolf V4 cpu $1200
Fuel pumps ( high pressure and high volume) and surge tank $1200
fuel lines $120
tuning $250 (first time useless) $800 second time pick up a few faults
Fuel pressure regulator $250
Alternator (vt commodore $130 waste of time)
Alternator landrover 120 amp $720 brand new important from england
then you have all the little thing you forget about $500
the mechanics fees were around 4 k by the end of it, tuning was around $1200 at the end. Lots of wrong advice cost me dollars but now if asked i would suggest 4.6 carby if you wanted injection much of a muchness. Personally i would go a 4.6 ( mine is roughly the same size with the boring etc ).
Short motor with leyland pistons (includes machining) $1200
Adapters ( engine swapped for them free ) normal $350
Inlet manifold $150 with injectors and fuel rail
air filter box $50
Wolf V4 cpu $1200
Fuel pumps ( high pressure and high volume) and surge tank $1200
fuel lines $120
tuning $250 (first time useless) $800 second time pick up a few faults
Fuel pressure regulator $250
Alternator (vt commodore $130 waste of time)
Alternator landrover 120 amp $720 brand new important from england
then you have all the little thing you forget about $500
the mechanics fees were around 4 k by the end of it, tuning was around $1200 at the end. Lots of wrong advice cost me dollars but now if asked i would suggest 4.6 carby if you wanted injection much of a muchness. Personally i would go a 4.6 ( mine is roughly the same size with the boring etc ).
How did you find the V4 ecu to use? i have just purchased one to replace my ver3.1. Im going to go multi coil with crank trigger and closed loop o2 control.madrangie wrote:base motor rebuild ( first time ) $3000 including h
Wolf V4 cpu $1200
the mechanics fees were around 4 k by the end of it, tuning was around $1200 at the end. Lots of wrong advice cost me dollars but now if asked i would suggest 4.6 carby if you wanted injection much of a muchness. Personally i would go a 4.6 ( mine is roughly the same size with the boring etc ).
What sort of power/fuel consumption where you able to squeeze out of the v4?
cheers
L:uke
We tuned it for power only so the fuel consumption is as you would expect from a Rangie terrible, the truck is not a daily driver ( about once every 3 months). When we go to the high country a mate with a 3.5 carby and 33 muddies get's about the same as i do with 35 centipedes, @ 100kph i sit on about 2650 rpm while he is on 3000 rpm. The main difference is at that speed is i still have the grunt to over take while he doesn't.
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