Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Im looking at doing a RUF and have found a set of springs for the rear which seem to be the right length for my application. My question is: What non - suzuki springs are people using on the rear of your sierras and how do you decide which leaves to remove from the spring pack of a Hilux front set for example for best operation on a lighter car.

Hilux springs are 60mm wide. If you want to make new spring hangers, spring plates and shackles and build some sort of funky shackle, it might be possible to use a hilux front, but unless they are heavily lifted, they won't have enough arch to be much use as a SPUA spring.

Other options are jeep CJ rear, Feroza rear, and some other strange car fitments like Carry van and mazda 808.

Steve.

im actually not really looking at using hilux springs, it was an example of the size of car to gauge which leaves people have removed from springs to get good results. I believe the set im looking at are off of either a MQ or a leaf sprung GQ front end.

sierra springs are 50 mm wide and std lenght is 40"
i used mazda RX4 rear springs on my rear which has the same bolt/ diff position but is 46" long, bit too long i think but was something to play with.
i got a set of lifted rears for the RUF as well

The springs ive measured up are 1100 mm long (50 mm or so longer than my current rears) and will move the rear diff 30 mm back ward.

tanshi wrote:The springs ive measured up are 1100 mm long (50 mm or so longer than my current rears) and will move the rear diff 30 mm back ward.

spill the beans

what are they from?

Will spill once i have figured out if they work. Share the love and all that. just not sure if i should be removing short leaves or long ones to get them to soften up

tanshi wrote:Will spill once i have figured out if they work. Share the love and all that. just not sure if i should be removing short leaves or long ones to get them to soften up

just start with the bottom one (load leafs) and see how you go. They are designed to stop the spring sagging when weight is added to the car. Only limits compression with it in. We took them out of my mates 2" lifted king spring leaves and with some slightly ext. shackles it softened up noticably. (rode like a go cart before though).

Sorry to hijack the thread somewhat but I am also thinking of just changing the main leaf in my springs. I put a Calmini lift kit in and I'm not real happy with the shackle angles. I should be able to use the main leaves from the rear on the front should I not? But what leaves should I use for the rear? I don't want to move the diff or anything like that if I can avoid it and I just want a better shackle angle.

Will the shackle angle just fix itself as it sags some more? How long will that take?

on that note what is a good shackle angle?

I'm pretty sure 45 degrees on flat ground is ideal.

When I spoke to a spring builder recently he said almost straight up and down was spot on and didnt like the look of my front shackles on a 45deg angle. But some good info I did get was the second leaf should be the same lenght as the main other wise the main will kink on the second if that makes sense?
Spill the beans on the 50mm longer springs although the rx4s sound nie and flexy are they hard to come by as the mazda 323 626 808 are hard to find>
Nik

GRPABT1 - the real problem is too stiff springs with too much arch. Putting the rear main leaf in the front will have the same effect as RUF - the axle will come forward 40mm, and you'll need a chassis extension to make it work.

Keep pulling leaves out until it works properly.

PS - there's no "right" answer to shackle angle. Shackle angle is a product of spring length and will vary depending on how much compression travel you have, how you want the suspension to work, how much load is in the car, how long the shackles are..... it's impossible to give a "correct" answer.

Sierra's with stock spring mounts tend have the shackles very close to vertical with 2" or more of spring lift. This is a reflection of the fact that stock sierra's with 2 or more inches of spring lift have almost no droop in the suspension.

If you aren't going to play with EVERYTHING- i.e shackle length, shackle hanger position, bumpstop spacing, shock length and mounts, don't worry about the shackle angle. If you don't like it, just take lift out of the car because that's what the shackle angle is telling you - you have too much lift for the suspension design.

More angled shackles promote softer initial suspension movement and "squat" under power. Not everyone is after this either.

Steve.

11_evl wrote:sierra springs are 50 mm wide and std lenght is 40"
i used mazda RX4 rear springs on my rear which has the same bolt/ diff position but is 46" long, bit too long i think but was something to play with.
i got a set of lifted rears for the RUF as well

Bit too long for what, a short wheel base, your shocks, original mounts?

Just asking as Im think of putting longer rear leaves on my LWB and I have plenty of chassis to play with, what was the ride height like with the standard RX4 leafs, did you make up custom leaf packs, if so, out of what, and how many leafs did you end up running?

Jaffa wrote:

11_evl wrote:sierra springs are 50 mm wide and std lenght is 40"
i used mazda RX4 rear springs on my rear which has the same bolt/ diff position but is 46" long, bit too long i think but was something to play with.
i got a set of lifted rears for the RUF as well

Bit too long for what, a short wheel base, your shocks, original mounts?

Just asking as Im think of putting longer rear leaves on my LWB and I have plenty of chassis to play with, what was the ride height like with the standard RX4 leafs, did you make up custom leaf packs, if so, out of what, and how many leafs did you end up running?

i used FULL leaf pack from rx4 rear.
the ride height is about an inch above shagged stockers
more flex but can do better with more leaves removed. if i can get my hands on a set of lifted rears maybe 44" long ill be happy. that way i can still use my shackle setup. shocks- im using adjustable ranchos on an angle towards the inside, inverted i think they call it!!!

Gwagensteve wrote:GRPABT1 - the real problem is too stiff springs with too much arch. Putting the rear main leaf in the front will have the same effect as RUF - the axle will come forward 40mm, and you'll need a chassis extension to make it work.

Keep pulling leaves out until it works properly.

Steve.

I got the "light duty" springs with my kit and they only contain 4 springs. Contrary to popular belief not all Calmini kits are too stiff. The problem is the kit is usually sold with the "heavy duty" springs to prevent sag which contain about 6 leaves I think. I actually welcome a bit of sag cause I didn't want it too high and the light duty springs are supposed to sag about an inch with time.

My shackles sit about verticle as it is but the springs are only new and I thought as it sags they will flatten out and lengthen a little and the shackle will angle back a little. Am I correct in thinking this?

BTW brand new my calmini setup flexes twice as good as my old well worn stock springs, so I am happy.

The real problem is that stock spring lengths just won't take much lift.

The vertical shackle angle is really an indication that the suspension is close to fully extended. I can't comment on the leaf thickness of Calmini springs, but most of us are running 4 leaf rear packs and 3 leaf front.

I still say you have too much spring rate and too much arch if your shackles are vertical, regardless of how many leaves you have.

Steve.

I originally wanted the 3.5inch calmini kit that comes with 1.5 inch lifted springs not the 3inch (?) ones I have now but the supplier ran out of the other springs and gave these ones for the price of the 1.5 inch ones and promised me they would settle down about an inch. If they don't I'll probably remove a leaf see if that helps. Should be good when I get 33's

OK, this all worked ok in the end. I fitted 82 model MQ front springs to the rear of the Sierra. Redrilled the front spring hangers 20mm forward. I removed leaves so they now have three total and the ride is beautiful. In total these springs are 1100mm long which was 50mm longer than my 2" lifted rears.

tanshi wrote:OK, this all worked ok in the end. I fitted 82 model MQ front springs to the rear of the Sierra. Redrilled the front spring hangers 20mm forward. I removed leaves so they now have three total and the ride is beautiful. In total these springs are 1100mm long which was 50mm longer than my 2" lifted rears.

Pics

also are these 50mm wide also and any more mods needed to fit them in?

They are 60mm wide. I had to modify the following.
1. Move spring hanger hole 20mm
2. elongate the holes in the plate the the u-bolts go through out ward 5mm each side.
3. make a 6mm plate with holes in the correct places for under the spring plate.
4. open my shackles up 5mm on each side.
5. alter the bump stops/u-bolts so that the u-bolts will still hold them down when they are tightened.

pics tonight

tanshi wrote:They are 60mm wide. I had to modify the following.
1. Move spring hanger hole 20mm
2. elongate the holes in the plate the the u-bolts go through out ward 5mm each side.
3. make a 6mm plate with holes in the correct places for under the spring plate.
4. open my shackles up 5mm on each side.
5. alter the bump stops/u-bolts so that the u-bolts will still hold them down when they are tightened.

pics tonight

Approx. how much lift did they give? similar to your 2" lifted rears? more? less? How much would they move your rear axle?

maybe 3" lift. cant really tell too well cos i fitted a 2" body lift at the same time. didnt raise it too much though. my shackles went from being almost vertical to being almost 45 degrees which im happy with. Droop is really good though.

oh and they moved my rear axle back just over an inch which centres my wheels in the wheel arch, before they were too far forward.

tanshi wrote:maybe 3" lift. cant really tell too well cos i fitted a 2" body lift at the same time. didnt raise it too much though. my shackles went from being almost vertical to being almost 45 degrees which im happy with. Droop is really good though.

when you go to take photos can you pls measure your bumpstop distance???

im keen for pics as well. side view please

So you redrilled the front solid mount 20mm forward than offset the centre bolt also? How far out was the centre bolt do you have measurements on the spring lenght and centre bolt from front of spring?
Sounds good though and a little lift over the 2" were the 2" springs noew or sagged old ones.
Thanks for any info.
Nik

I measured the internal width of my spring hanger and i have about 66mm clear. did you have to widen the mount at all to fit the 60mm spring?

the original hangers were perfect. stretched enough to allow good movement including bushes.
i redrilled the hangers 20mm forwards, didnt drill the centre bolt at all. the spring is almost exactly 1100mm. with the bolt in the centre. IE 550. the top bump stop on the back IE the steel one. is 220 from the top of the top leaf in the spring pack. they are slightly higher though not much higher than my non sagged 2" rears. As for pics i will definitly get some but it was dark by the time i got home from work.

Can you take a couple more measurements while you're at it. I'm looking at doing similar and extra wheelbase is more important to me than travel (I realise I'll have to move the tank, shock mounts, bumpstops, rear hanger etc etc).

How long is the MQ front from fixed end to centre bolt<-->centre bolt to shackle?

From looking through old threads:
a Suzuki rear is 20in<-->20in=40 total (50mm wide)
a Lux front is 22.5in<-->22.5in= 45 (60mm wide)
Early Lux rear is 20.5<-->27.5= 48
IFS rear is 22<-->29=51
MQ Front is ??<-->??=43-44in? (60mm wide)

Even with the rear hanger moved back the 1.5-2in possible on a swb WT chassis I don't think I can run anything longer than a 45-46in spring at most without running unwanted massive shackles. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There was an old thread about running an early lux rear spring backwards to move the diff back about 7in and then running a standard front driveshaft which is about 8in (200mm) longer than a standard rear. Interested to know how this would perform re pinion angle (due to having the spring backwards), shaft strength and axle wrap etc.

Just throwing ideas around.