Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok have given up on doing up my Raider (IFS) and have decided to build a toy. Money is tight so the "Toy" will have to be done on the cheap. It must be street legal but good (and fun) on grade 4 tracks (with grade five a little further in time).

To open up the can of worms, what would be a good base?

A major consideration is availability and cost of parts. Less of a problem would be ease to work on but I don't have a workshop so.........

Nev62 wrote:Ok have given up on doing up my Raider (IFS) and have decided to build a toy. Money is tight so the "Toy" will have to be done on the cheap. It must be street legal but good (and fun) on grade 4 tracks (with grade five a little further in time).

To open up the can of worms, what would be a good base?

A major consideration is availability and cost of parts. Less of a problem would be ease to work on but I don't have a workshop so.........

Sierra

No question... if on a budget sierra is it

The only other option is MQ patrol but they're getting harder to get bits for due to age

hilux so many options
long wheel base

Thought LWB would be a disadvantage???

Sierra,
Have been pricing around for a project for myself (similar specs)
think the lil suzi is about the best for budget.

sierra is the way to go they cheap and they go hard and im on a tight budget too have fun

A Suzi, Hilux or fj40 can all be bought very cheap and good aftermarket parts are avalable for all. One advantage of the suzi tho is you could prob tow it with the raider if you needed too or to comps so you didnt have to worry about breaking it and the drive home.

Go a sierra for sure

Get one with a 1.3 as cheap as you can and add 1.5 - 2" body lift, chop the guards, 31" muds (2nd hand if $$$ tight), weld the rear diff. Homemade snorkel too.

Could do the lot cheap as, <2g's if you can do most of it yourself or have mates who can help

Would be a capable weekend toy and legal (apart from CIG locker but what they don't know )

As $$$ flow in upgrade things

Suzuki Viagra wrote:The only other option is MQ patrol but they're getting harder to get bits for due to age

This has to be a Joke right?

You cant be serious. Firstly they have Crap engine options. Obviouse when you read about all the guys here running engine swaps. Secondly Re-gearing is realy not an option as their is no after market support. They Are big and heavy. You realy need to be 100% commited to own a MQ.

Zook i agrea with but i think other than that there are only 2 other options. Hilux or a Range Rover. Lots of Aftermarket support on all 3 of these.


Let me Guess your third option would have been a LADA

Look for something already done.

Paying $ for shit new will cost heaps, and if the car is already setup and happy then worth paying a few more bucks than a stocker.


What is a 'tight budget'? How much?

RUFF wrote:

Suzuki Viagra wrote:The only other option is MQ patrol but they're getting harder to get bits for due to age

This has to be a Joke right?

You cant be serious. Firstly they have Crap engine options. Obviouse when you read about all the guys here running engine swaps. Secondly Re-gearing is realy not an option as their is no after market support. They Are big and heavy. You realy need to be 100% commited to own a MQ.

Zook i agrea with but i think other than that there are only 2 other options. Hilux or a Range Rover. Lots of Aftermarket support on all 3 of these.


Let me Guess your third option would have been a LADA

I have to agree about the MQ( to a degree ) they are good as a cheap play 4b, but when you want to go to the next level there is a lot of work and bugger all, to no aftermarket stuff like gears, stronger c.v's etc.
Go the hilux or suzi as you can get heaps of off the shelf stuff to make a good rig for a reasonable cost.

Hilux
supension+bodylift to clear 32" swampers on stock split rims

Later re-gear the diffs and add lockers
and you're done

Then if you really want get some aftermarket stronger cvs

Budget would be <3000 (to start with ). Price would be less but after seeing the results of My45's misadventure, I want some bar work. I want to do as much as possible myself due to the fact that I like to "tinker" with things and when not playing on the tracks I can play in the garage

Matt N wrote:Hilux
supension+bodylift to clear 32" swampers on stock split rims

Later re-gear the diffs and add lockers
and you're done

Then if you really want get some aftermarket stronger cvs

is the 32" advise a typo??? WTF? or am i reading it wrong?...re-gear diffs to fit 32"s?...suspension+bodylift to fit 32"s?

308LUX wrote:

Matt N wrote:Hilux
supension+bodylift to clear 32" swampers on stock split rims

Later re-gear the diffs and add lockers
and you're done

Then if you really want get some aftermarket stronger cvs

is the 32" advise a typo??? WTF? or am i reading it wrong?...re-gear diffs to fit 32"s?...suspension+bodylift to fit 32"s?

You'd think 34's if its for skinny split rims.

My advice would be buy a zook, cheap, heaps of after market mods, good on fuel and well yeah

Just buy a cheap hilux out of the trading post ive seen em latly 82 mod v8 lift kit and 33'' for between$3000 and $4000 what a platform to work with JIM BEAM STAY TRUE BULL SHIT TOYOTA STAY TRUE

I’ll be getting mine up and running pretty cheap…

FJ40 cost $500
Came with 4speed and a welded rear diff to drop in after rego

Cleaning up, Rust Repairs (minor) id say no more than $50.
Cut rear guard $10 for some blades
Battery $100
Shocks $340
Brakes $dunno yet
Road legal tyres Free
Rego spose about $250

Then it’s ready to drive.

Will be adding after rego:

front air locker $1500
Toybox/Rocbox $2-3k I’m guessing
35s, not sure which type yet...so round $1600 I guess
Rollbar $depends on who I get to do it
Disc brake front

And then she’s basically done…will keep the 2F till it dies then think about what to put in later…

RUFF wrote:

Suzuki Viagra wrote:The only other option is MQ patrol but they're getting harder to get bits for due to age

This has to be a Joke right?

You cant be serious. Firstly they have Crap engine options. Obviouse when you read about all the guys here running engine swaps. Secondly Re-gearing is realy not an option as their is no after market support. They Are big and heavy. You realy need to be 100% commited to own a MQ.

Zook i agrea with but i think other than that there are only 2 other options. Hilux or a Range Rover. Lots of Aftermarket support on all 3 of these.


Let me Guess your third option would have been a LADA

The missus says I should have been" commited "years ago and the key thrown away !!
Now I own 3 I tend to agree with her, The MQ is a rig for those that have mechanicle and problem solving skills, a good w/shop, dedication, and a lot of patientence. Once done however they are more than a capable rig. You have to remember these rigs are 20 years old now so stock motors are getting replaced with much more servicable units hence the V8 conversions etc

As for my suggestion...
yep the zooki is a great choice for a "play" rig and a few extra $$$ can easily make it a fairly serious rig too.

2nd choice would be a lux..... very common and plentiful spares

3rd choice.... I'd almost go with a "LADA" ! yeah I know .... He said WHAT !!!. I've been supprised by these silly russian things in the past and have some respect for them. One inparticular had the absolute cwap flogged out of it for 2 years and fired up the next day ready for more ( the owner since sold it an bought an MQ but the LADA's current owner hasnt let up on yet either ! ) They are dirt cheap, spares are easy and cheap too and I think its more of an "embarrasment" issue in relation to these 4bs. I like the idea of something differant

As for a rangie... most ppl I know that have em swear by em till its spare parts time..... I wonder if thats why some owners smell like vasoline ???

V8Patrol wrote:
As for a rangie... most ppl I know that have em swear by em till its spare parts time..... I wonder if thats why some owners smell like vasoline ???

Rangie bits are cheap as chips ... remeber it is like everything, it's not what you know...

I would put a Rangie in thats list as an option as well.......... But a Zook is deffinately on the top of your Cheap and easy list.....

Little beast with a set of 31" tyres and locked rear you be laughing all the way to the top of a hill (while the big bugga Nissans and no go hilux spits and spatters around at the bottom )

Ready for anti nissan/hilux flaming......... BRING IT

308LUX wrote:

Matt N wrote:Hilux
supension+bodylift to clear 32" swampers on stock split rims

Later re-gear the diffs and add lockers
and you're done

Then if you really want get some aftermarket stronger cvs

is the 32" advise a typo??? WTF? or am i reading it wrong?...re-gear diffs to fit 32"s?...suspension+bodylift to fit 32"s?

OK 308LUX let me have a crack at explaining.

INTRO:
The description I gave is exactly how a mates Hilux is setup, and this setup was good enough to survive the first Outback Challenge without any breakage or problems and come home mid-field. It also saw us place 2nd in the 2001 Nissan trials without breakage. We did however in the Nissan Trials do panel damage, bend the springs and dent the rear driveshaft, but we still easily drove home over 300km in that condition. Drive there, place highly, drive back home. What more could you want...

The guy wants wants it done on the cheap, and wants to be road legal,
If you want to be road legal, keep it small. My mate has a 2" suspension lift: simple, effective, flexy, cheap.

With that suspension the 32" swampers still rubbed on the front inner wheel wells. Well you could cut or hack at them or not even worry about it, but we chose a 2" body lift, it was easy to do and pretty cheap.
The lux does not look overly tall so it looks pretty legal, even though technically with 4" of combined lift it may not be. I dunno.

If you want to do grade 4/5 tracks I would be using aggressive rubber, but do you really need more than 32s to do this type of driving?
Swampers are probably a bad choice as they are not road legal so maybe Simex tyres are the go. The split rims are cheap, easy to find, and make bush tyre repairs easy.
32s are also cheaper than bigger tyres, and will cut down on mods needed to clear bigger meats and you are less likely to break CVs when you go hard.

Why regear? Well you dont have to, Nev62 may not be able to afford it or want to, but when you are in a stock lux with not much power, running bigger tyres than stock (even though they are only 32s) it does help out. Plus for 4wding the lower the gearing the better in my opinion.

The Marfields my mate has are just an insurance policy, nice to have but not really 100% needed, but then if you go bigger than 33s and go hard I would definately be looking at stronger CVs unless you are like Guts who used to luv changing them every time he went out

This is probably all a bit irrelevant now that Nev62 has actually put a price of less than 3K on his "toy", cause my mate spent a 5hitload more than that.

Anyway LUX308 what do you rekon?

matt n...im not douting that your mates rig is quite capable...but you definatly dont need a body lift or re-gearing to run 32"s...id be putting the $$ into others areas...you can set up a hilux to run 38" tyres with 2inch bodylift or less if you know what your doing, have a look at RUFF's...and POS's.

308LUX wrote:matt n...im not douting that your mates rig is quite capable...but you definatly dont need a body lift or re-gearing to run 32"s...id be putting the $$ into others areas...you can set up a hilux to run 38" tyres with 2inch lift or less if you know what your doing, have a look at RUFF's...and POS's.

Mine has more than 2" of lift total(Maybe3-4) and POS has about 8" or more.

Im currently thinking of building another just to DD and it will have no Body lift 2" springs at the most and should fit my 38s with no rubbing. I have most of the parts i just need to decide if i want to sack my 2wd ute to use most of the parts from it.

do it RUFF!!!!!

ohh & i meant 2inch body lift

Last month's issue of 4wd Monthly had an article about budget 4wd's under 10 grand, buying and modifying them under 10 grand.

Chase up a copy. Mentions were 4runner, suzuki, range rover, MQ MK, 60 series landcruiser.

Very interesting read

RUFF wrote:

Suzuki Viagra wrote:The only other option is MQ patrol but they're getting harder to get bits for due to age

This has to be a Joke right?

You cant be serious. Firstly they have Crap engine options. Obviouse when you read about all the guys here running engine swaps. Secondly Re-gearing is realy not an option as their is no after market support. They Are big and heavy. You realy need to be 100% commited to own a MQ.

Zook i agrea with but i think other than that there are only 2 other options. Hilux or a Range Rover. Lots of Aftermarket support on all 3 of these.
[\quote]

This is my opinion... and i'm entitled to it

Hmmmm... crap engines. You can say that about Rovers and Hiluxes too... mmm let me see is even the 2.8 litre 140 hp 6 better than ANY hilux engine? Yes.

Is it substantially worse than the carby 3.5 you'll get in a rangie that you will still pay twice the price for to get one that isnt completely rusted to death? no. Check the power stats on your early carby rangies - what is it exactly? I know that the SD1's had 170HP and the rangie will be detuned from that

Just swapping cam and carby out of an old $300 rustbucket Skyline and you're back up to 160 HP - parts probably will set you back $100 at the wreckers.

Considering the power I got out of my 240Z engine...getting a lot more out of the 2.8 would be easy. Nothing too fancy but it would still spin the back wheels to the top of 3rd - not bad for 2.4 litres.

Given the price you can go a LONG way to a better engine if that is your biggest problem.

How about a 3 litre 6 or 4.2 in the later ones (MK and MQ are all the same in my view)? Or a 3.3 Turbo diesel? Yeah - I've seen 3.3 turbo diesel with 5 speed for about $3000 a few times recently.

You'd also pick up a V8 powered MQ for about $3000-4000, although it would probably only have the 4 speed.

If you don't get one of the good engines, and you decide you need the power try http://www.marks4wd.com/nismqe.html

Even here in ghastly QLD we can do those sorts of swaps legally - mmm v8 power.

Good to see how these are all worse than the crappy 18R's in similar priced luxes....... Show me your hi-po Hiluxes in this price range.

Shitstir:
How many people swap engines in their hiluxes anyway? Obviously that means hilux engines are also completely crap so we can't buy a hilux either. Likewise all these people throwing away the boatanchor 1.0 suzuki engines, so sierras are crap too. Mustnt buy either.... maybe you need a nice X5 or Cayenne......


You also can use diesel diffs, which is gonna give you pretty reasonable gearing (not that it's actually THAT bad in stock form).

You do get options of 4.625 and 4.875 factory diffs and a 4.222:1 low range in 1st with the 5 speed.... even using stock parts this can be a 46:1 crawl.


He's talking about a BUDGET car of about $3000 max, with a little bit more money at a later date - availability of 8:1 rockhopper kits isn't really relevant here......

Well... maybe in another couple of years.... by then he should have rolled it anyway

Guys, I set the price of <3000 for this little project of mine as it is just for fun and not my daily driver. I would like to be in a position so that when (not if ) I break it, I can smile while I'm fixing it up to try it again . I don't really care if I'm the last one up those steps or bank. Just so long as I can do it and with luck, get me home. I have no problem with scrounging around wreckers or knocking on doors with "garden ordainments" in the front/back yards.

The replies to my post have been great thus far. So many things I did not think of and good healthy debates opening other options and ideas.

I had thought a MWB would have been the go (more stable down hill??) and was worried about the stability of the zooks with their narrow wheel base.

the whole Suzuki stability myth is just that a myth. They are just as stable as most 4bys. They maybe skinny compared to a Landcruiser but for the size of the vehicle thay aren't. I have seen just as many if not more Luxes and patrols go over than Zuks. The Zuks are light with a pretty good COG whereas you get into a hardtop Cruiser or Patrol with 35s and its COg will be much higher making them less stable. Wheelbase issues can be resolved by getting a lwb Zuk or stretching the wheel base by using rear springs up front and some longer offset springs in the rear, say Hilux springs

Also have to remember that if you go over in a Zuk it is an easy exercise to get it back over compared to a heavy Patrol or Cruiser. They are very strong little cars that can take an enormous amount of abuse. Easy to fix, generally cheap to fix and fun.

Grimbo summed up the zook case quite well, here is the case for a Hilux.

I bought a $1600 shitter from the side of the road, did all the work myself (except the motor rebuild) Prolly owes me $6500 (less 4000 for motor, pump, injectors) Could have opted for an import motor for a lot cheaper, but this motor had to be 100% reliable, and tows my box trailer and tyres easily, plenty of power (2.4 diesel). Good thing, because it makes the weekends away a lot easier when faced with a 3 hour drive to the trail...

Single cab, ally tray. No lockers, worn out LSD in the rear, body lift, cut the chassis down, cut tray to match, moved front diff forward, sleeved tie rod, camo rattle can paintjob, high clearance crossmember,

Still has manual push pull steering, no shock mount mods, 2 piece driveshaft, already owned the JT2s, standard length springs, A/C (can't get that in most other rigs in this price range)


I have to say I've had more fun in this rig than all the trails I've driven in the locked Mav, just because it is pure toy and it doesnt matter, or cost a lot, when it breaks. Damn near every wrecker has a minimum of 3 luxs in their yards at any one time, so that's pretty good odds to get the parts you need at any time, even late on a sunday arvo.

Hilux.

grimbo wrote:the whole Suzuki stability myth is just that a myth. They are just as stable as most 4bys. They maybe skinny compared to a Landcruiser but for the size of the vehicle thay aren't. I have seen just as many if not more Luxes and patrols go over than Zuks. The Zuks are light with a pretty good COG whereas you get into a hardtop Cruiser or Patrol with 35s and its COg will be much higher making them less stable. Wheelbase issues can be resolved by getting a lwb Zuk or stretching the wheel base by using rear springs up front and some longer offset springs in the rear, say Hilux springs

Also have to remember that if you go over in a Zuk it is an easy exercise to get it back over compared to a heavy Patrol or Cruiser. They are very strong little cars that can take an enormous amount of abuse. Easy to fix, generally cheap to fix and fun.

Looking at how tall a troopy cruiser is for it's width .... Sierras are ULTRA stable......


If you're really worried about stability in the Zook fit something like MQ axles in it... or buy a LWB.

Or of course chop 7 types of hell out of it so you dont need as much lift for those big tyres