Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I am considering running a hydraulic winch, what I would like to know is what pump set-ups are people running or what would be the best. I have thought about a power steering pump and using an electric clutch pulley off an A/C compressor so the pump is not running all the time, what are your thoughts/ideas.

P/S pump will give you a very limited flow (hence slow winch speed) and you can't drag much HP through a single belt if you want to run somthing biggish.

the only way to do it is PTO the bitch. Pumps on an engine wont be able to generate enough pressure or flow rate to pull you up some things let alone fast. might not be a good example but bee bee and gregs (beebee and 1mad engineer) hilux has a hydro pump to push the rear coils down for forced articulation. very slow process. then again dobbin etc. running coilover on hydro seem to push down quicker.


PTO ir nothin.... i think it was spoken about in detail early this year too.

what about one of these?




They are off hydraulic tippers etc and turn up on ebay evey now and then fairly cheap.

Andy

How they function .. ? as same as usualual hydraulic pump .?

It can be done on the front of the engine. A comp truck in NZ is running that - can't be sure how but I'm suggesting it'd be chain or gear driven. I know its off the main front pully.

Powers a Superwinch Hydraulic winch - and fast. He had to Supercharge the Toyo 1UZ V8 to power the winch, the enigne would just stall.

Those ecectric pumps in the pix wont give you much flow and the motors driving them are pretty much just a starter motor so the duty cycle is very low.You would be better off with a electric winch than with one of these. When they as of hydraulic tippers usually meen small 1 - 2 ton tippers which have no provision on the gearbox for a propper PTO pump setup. They are renound for burning out motors with prolonged use.

chunderlicious wrote:the only way to do it is PTO the bitch. Pumps on an engine wont be able to generate enough pressure or flow rate to pull you up some things let alone fast. might not be a good example but bee bee and gregs (beebee and 1mad engineer) hilux has a hydro pump to push the rear coils down for forced articulation. very slow process. then again dobbin etc. running coilover on hydro seem to push down quicker.


PTO ir nothin.... i think it was spoken about in detail early this year too.

Running off the motor is fine. The only benefit with the PTO is the gearing which you can make up with your pulley size.

PS I've got a new pump for my hydraulics which is much quicker. And as far as I'm aware, the Dobbin boys (at least Chad)all run electric pumps as do I.

beebee what is the pump you are running, how is it set-up?

Anyone know what the flow of the 1FZ-FE PS p/p is?

ive been talking to a guy in nz, with a pto set up on a cruisers that runs a hydrolic power pack thats winching at a rate of 180 feet a minute which is under winching competion, and the power pack will only pull 110 amps from your battery on full load, ill try and find the link and post it up, they had a speel on this on 4wd tv may be 12 month ago

rob

most electric powerpacks run either a 2 or 4cc pump which give a max of 4l/min, whereas a std PS pump is able to deliver ~5lmin, a good competition setup will generally require ~32cc which under the correct pressure can draw 15-20hp from the engine. the largest cost effective mag clutchs are from mowers and will handle 15-18hp and cost approx $900. yes there are heaps of other options but it all come down to $$$$.

62cc pump driven of the engine with 3 V belts, mechanical clutch (electric cant handle the power). presure relief set at 220 PSI. This setup works ... Smaller pump = Lower speed. This is tested on a competition car.

Not wanting to turn this into a "my winch is faster than yours" thread, but to setup a high speed hydraulic winch, the pump really does need to be engine crank or PTO driven.

Few experiences from the NZ winch comp scene.....

NVJ6 has already mentioned the 1UZ powered Prado that has a crank driven pump. Ingeneous in its simplicity, but he had to supercharge the Lexus as the winch kept stalling it out. FYI, am pretty sure it uses a Prado auto.

Another 1UZ powered FJ40 winch truck uses PTO driven pump. Pulls in excess of 300ft/min, and reputed to be closer to 400 (haven't seen the numbers personally, but it is extremely quick to race against!)

Turboed TB42 Patrol uses PTO driven pump, no BS 300ft/min winch speed.

All to date use Superwinch HPN8 winches, there will shortly be a ComeUp winch in the mix also.

Pumps vary in size from 55-80 odd cc. Big capacity pump = lower line speed, but mucho torque. Smaller pump = higher line speed, but with less torque.

Line pressures running in excess of 2000psi, from memory the Superwinch is good for 1800, so pressure reducers required.

Am not too clued up on the details of hydraulics, and prefer simple PTO winch meself, but above is some info I've picked up along the way, so take it in the light in which it was intended.

"Pumps vary in size from 55-80 odd cc. Big capacity pump = lower line speed, but mucho torque. Smaller pump = higher line speed, but with less torque. "

Bigger pump = more flow = faster line speed = more HP to drive (or less pressure/torque from the same input HP)

Bigger motor = slower speed = more torque from same flow & pressure.

Most PTO's for 4WD's have a very limited torque rating and i think from memory the max continious HP from a pto for a cruiser is about 9HP.
You can buy air operated dog clutches to handle reasonable HP if you wanted to direct couple to engine.

'Money no object' setup may be variable piston pump / variable piston motor. Gives variable speed and output torque, with differant controls could be manually or automatically variable depending on load.
Bad bit, lots a dollars.

Havent had much to do with 4wd winches, but played with a few setups on cranes/tilt trays/heavy salvage trucks etc where line speed (expecially fast) isnt important.

ricky1970 wrote: Bigger motor = slower speed = more torque from same flow & pressure.

Yeah, thats the ticket.

beebee wrote:

chunderlicious wrote:the only way to do it is PTO the bitch. Pumps on an engine wont be able to generate enough pressure or flow rate to pull you up some things let alone fast. might not be a good example but bee bee and gregs (beebee and 1mad engineer) hilux has a hydro pump to push the rear coils down for forced articulation. very slow process. then again dobbin etc. running coilover on hydro seem to push down quicker.


PTO ir nothin.... i think it was spoken about in detail early this year too.

Running off the motor is fine. The only benefit with the PTO is the gearing which you can make up with your pulley size.

PS I've got a new pump for my hydraulics which is much quicker. And as far as I'm aware, the Dobbin boys (at least Chad)all run electric pumps as do I.

Yeah all of us except glenn are running the electric type. glenn runs a larger pump off the front of the motor(somehow) glenn has a modified hydro winch which is insanly quick and very strong (high volume high flow) all his hydraulics are quick due to his setup. the best thing about the electric setup is it can still steer the rear steer and run the hydraulics without starting the car and they are not to far behind in speed when setup correctly (much larger return lines and short runs)

A gear driven pump is needed to run quick and reliable hydro setup's I will run a gear setup on the next project that runs all the hydraulic equipment (steer winch and suspension).

do your home work!

Chad

Chad, what is the electric set-up that you are running, I am only looking at running a 10500/12000lbs hydraulic winch on my 80 Series for touring, is there a pump that can be mounted off the side of the engine that will give adequate performance, something better than running the winch off the PS p/p.

Max Pressure = Max torque available
Flow rate = speed

Assuming that the engine revs are constant and the engine is large enough not to drop revs, spped is constant irrelvent of load. That's standard hydraulics.

is 2000psi will give X pulling power max.

Speed comes from combination of Pump L/Min and Hydraulic Motor cc/rev
Calc them out and you have your speed. Rev pump faster, line moves faster.

Unlike electric where the slower it revs the more torque it develops, hydraulic has torque independent of speed, provided adequate input power is avaialble.

As line load builds in hydraulic, speed will remain constant, input pressure will increase. If line load keeps increasing, pressure will increase to "max" then relief valve in pump will open and flow will bypass winch and go through valve. L/min is still constant (per RPM)

If the winch is electric over hydraulic then things just got confused, and most likely inefficient.

I'm still looking for a good solution for my 100. Lots of quesitons that are hard to answer, esp as mine is a DD.

Paul