Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi,
I have recently taken on a sierra project and want a cheap lift. i was wondering if much was involved with the sprung over conversions...wether u only have to take the axle out and put it below or if you need to change drive shafts, steering components or anything like that.. any tips would be much appreciated,
Thanks - Ben

hey mate , beforew all the forum nazis go off there rocker about you being a newbie & search & all that ...........
have alook here , its from the sierra bible (thread at top of page !!)

spring over how to
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=174
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=44601

enjoy !!!

That first link is one of the best write ups on the net for spring overing a sierra. If you have not handed major mods before it would be a good idea to have someone with you who has preferably done it before and knows all the pitfalls.

You'll need:
4x spring perches, bought or made. BBM sells em.
Longer brake lines
Hi-steer set up, most exxy part of a SOA
Welder and someone with a good amount of skill to use it. Your life depends on these welds.
Bigger tyres

There's prolly more that Ive forgotten but read through the threads Moose provided and research it thoroughly before touching a spanner. Done properly it is a great mod that will really enhance the ability of your zook. Done badly it compromises steering, braking, handling and can be downright dangerous so make sure you know what you're doing!!!.....


...and search noob

And it's not "a cheap lift". It's just not. Please be realistic about the cost of a SPOA. Brake lines, high steer, springs, lowering bumpstops etc all takes parts and time and lots of care and thought.

SPOA also requires an engineers certificate to be legal. Before anyone gets shirty about this, because SPOA requires so much welding and difficult to reverse work, getting pinged and requiring a RWC after it's fitted becomes a nightmare.

$950 for the snake High steer
$600 for the eng cert, miniumum
$600 for springs?
$600 for shocks?
$100 for brake lines?
That's $2850. IMHO the added weight of larger wheels and tyres and the leverage of the SPOA make new springs and shocks a requirement of a SPOA conversion.

That's before bumpstops are spaced, driveline issues are dealt with, and before you get bigger tyres on the car and gear it to suit.

This is not a SPOA bashing post, I'm just trying to point out that SPOA is not a "cheap lift"

Yes, it is possible to get the springs sitting above the axles in a weekend with a welder and some tools, but that dpesn't mean it's the right way to do it.

Steve.

once u go sprung over u will never go back and about it being expensive its as expensive as u want it to be. I am spoa hilux diffs and best thing i ever did on a budget too.

Gwagensteve wrote: $950 for the snake High steer
$600 for the eng cert, miniumum
$600 for springs?
$600 for shocks?
$100 for brake lines?

That's $2850. IMHO the added weight of larger wheels and tyres and the leverage of the SPOA make new springs and shocks a requirement of a SPOA conversion.

u dont need new springs old worn out ones work better

so take off the 600 put that to your high steer

and for a spua lift your gunna need a bodylift to clear the tires

so your SPUA lift is gunna cost more no doubt about it

$600 for the eng cert, miniumum
$600 for springs?
$600 for shocks?
$100 for brake lines?
+bodylift

and there has to be cheaper high steer out there then snakes stuff

ben if you have a look around u will see gwagon is very anti spoa
have a look at the people who have commented who run a spring over

all happy

you will get more flex have more clearance under the chassis (about 2 inch)
an way more clearance under the diffs and in a sport were you shave your diffs to gain 3/4" clearance
having 2 or 3 inches of leaf springs hanging below makes alot of difference

Fruity_84 wrote:once u go sprung over u will never go back and about it being expensive its as expensive as u want it to be. I am spoa hilux diffs and best thing i ever did on a budget too.

but is that legally done with engineers cert and it actually legal in the state you live in?

soa is the way to go imo

as tim was saying the clearance is alot better,
and price shouldn't be that much if your creative

u will need...

new perches.. bit of rhs cut up $50 MAX

break lines i payed $100 and mine were HUGE!!!

and steering... ther is alot of ways u can go...
the merc arms seem to work relly well!

then tail shaft spacers or get your shaft lengthened $100

proberbly other stuff i carnt think of atm!!

PHIL

im not anti SPOA or SPUA (i,ve seen both set-ups work well) , just wondering how SPOA gives you more diff clearance ???

that comes down to tyre size !!!

SPUA running 33's = 280mm(11") -- to the lowest point !!

so my calculations would mean.................

SPOA running 33's = 280mm(11") as well !!!

until you shave the diffs !!!

I think he meant you can remove the old spring hangers from under the diff thus gaining overall axle clearance. Not pumpkin clearance.

( i know that , just stirring the pot !!!! )

redzook wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote: $950 for the snake High steer
$600 for the eng cert, miniumum
$600 for springs?
$600 for shocks?
$100 for brake lines?

That's $2850. IMHO the added weight of larger wheels and tyres and the leverage of the SPOA make new springs and shocks a requirement of a SPOA conversion.

u dont need new springs old worn out ones work better

so take off the 600 put that to your high steer

and for a spua lift your gunna need a bodylift to clear the tires

so your SPUA lift is gunna cost more no doubt about it

$600 for the eng cert, miniumum
$600 for springs?
$600 for shocks?
$100 for brake lines?
+bodylift

and there has to be cheaper high steer out there then snakes stuff

40mm ome springs = approx $360 for front & rear pairs.
3 x ext. brakelines cost me $120.
Body lift cost me $200.

Just depends on how much of a hurry your in/what size tyres you want to fit.
If you take your time and hunt around you can save alot on second hand stuff. I got 2 x efs fronts & 2 x ome rear bloody long shocks for $120 all up. few months old. instead of $150 each... You can save money as red_zook said above by runnin merc. arms for steering. I'd imagine going spoa with new 2" springs youd need to do something about driveshafts... wheter its spacers or custom...
and your lowrange will suck with 31" + tyres. if your doing any slow/crawling type driving your clutch will hate you.
reduction gears can be had for around $800.

moose wrote:( i know that , just stirring the pot !!!! )

Thanks for the advise guys... i didnt mean to cause a stir lol. but alot to take into consideration, will have a think and do some research on those links..
thanks

4x4 suzi wrote:Thanks for the advise guys... i didnt mean to cause a stir lol. but alot to take into consideration, will have a think and do some research on those links..
thanks

If you have a search through the zook section, and the zook bible, there is a fair bit of infomation there. SPOA vs SPUA is a bit like the nissan Vs Toyota debate. Everyone has their own opinion. But like almost every other mod, it has its uses, and if it is done properly, then can be safe and effective.
(though rumor has it SPOA doesn work south of the NSW/VIC border )

Layto....

lay80n wrote:

4x4 suzi wrote:Thanks for the advise guys... i didnt mean to cause a stir lol. but alot to take into consideration, will have a think and do some research on those links..
thanks

If you have a search through the zook section, and the zook bible, there is a fair bit of infomation there. SPOA vs SPUA is a bit like the nissan Vs Toyota debate. Everyone has their own opinion. But like almost every other mod, it has its uses, and if it is done properly, then can be safe and effective.
(though rumor has it SPOA doesn work south of the NSW/VIC border )

Layto....

only the zook club think like that !!!

not that it doesn't work, but that for the driving we do/did it wasn't the best solution

grimbo wrote:not that it doesn't work, but that for the driving we do/did it wasn't the best solution

Are you sure about that ?
Or is it more because the main person that drove the Tech aspect of the club is against SPOA ?
If as much time and effort had been put into the devlopement of a SPOA as was put into the RUF's 2 inch OME springs with a leaf or two removed and a 2 Inch BL followed by 34 swampers formula I am sure the SPOA would have worked easily as well.

Add to the better break over, appoach and departure angles A SPOA has alot going for it IMHO.
The steering was a big stumbling block until the new cast high steer knuckle was made.

lay80n wrote:
(though rumor has it SPOA doesn work south of the NSW/VIC border )

Layto....

I would have said it doesn't work above the NSW border lol

I have only come accross one circumstance in Victoria, where rampover of a sua, lwb with 31's 2inch suspension has been an issue. (maybe that just says I need to get out more )If I had 33's I would have gone straight over it. It was on a section of track with an easy bypass. so no biggy

With that in mind, I certainly couldn't justify the hassle with legalities. Also when the track has deep ruts/off camber etc the lower center of gravity is really nice.

I don't think its just Gwagonsteve that drives the sua argument in the zook club. There were only ever 3 cars built matching that description. (although more then that with different tyer combinations)

In NSW most of the people running spoa are on heavier diffs, which surely helps stability, however in victoria the prevalence of ruts, policing of extreme looking cars etc, means that a smaller tyer smaller diffs makes sence. I think that there are many tracks in victoria where hilux diffs, 33's and spoa wouldnt get up, where suzuki diff's 31's and sua would go up without much fuss. If we had lots of tracks with big boulders, rock ledges etc I can see how the latter would be better.

Rocky track toolangi so called hard victorian rock, can be driven by a zook on 31's sua. (easily if Christover is driving ) spoa is just overkill for that kind of challenge.

Holy carp. I was just having a joke with the Vic people about SPOA and the border
I deffinatley was not having a go at any one in particular.

SPUA or SPOA, they both work, so go with what you prefer.



Back to your normal programing


Layto....

please

noelb1 wrote: please

I never really meant it as a rebutle just saying how I saw it.

A) I'm not against spoa, I'm against poorly built cars that don't work. Because of the increased complexity of SPOA, it seems to me that more of these conversions don't work the way they should.

B) I've seen lots of SPOA cars with far more thought put into them than I've ever put into a car. They ought to work much better than a SPUA car and my opinion is based on the fact that as total packages, they don't seem to from what I have seen.

D) Love Mud, you are right, the steering was a major stumbling block and is now cured with a properly engineered solution, but instead there's still plenty of people willing to endorse the quick, cheap workarounds that undo the good work some companies are trying to do to improve the safety of what we are building.

This is one of things that pisses me off about this board. (And I'm not having a go at anyone in particular.) The cheapest quickest solution that gets the car back on the road is not the best. Yes, I do think it costs $2500 to build a high level SPUA car, and think it costs the same to build a SAFE SPOA car (and I have driven some unsafe ones.) My argument is that in a SPOA car more of the safety systems of the car are being interfered with (steering, weight transfer, caster, driveline angles) so there is less room to cut corners.

Once again though, I will get flamed for telling someone a SPOA can't be done in a weekend with a slab and a stick welder.

I don't have any more to add to this topic without ranting or talking in minute specifics about why I prefer a SPOA, or what works where, and this thread has nothing to do with that. It was about questions about a "cheap" lift and I just stated my opinion that SPOA's aren't cheap.


Steve.
[/b]

In NSW most of the people running spoa are on heavier diffs, which surely helps stability,

are you sure about this, i thought the science says the less unsprung weight the better , so the diffs follow the car not the other way around.
jason

mr green wrote:

In NSW most of the people running spoa are on heavier diffs, which surely helps stability,

are you sure about this, i thought the science says the less unsprung weight the better , so the diffs follow the car not the other way around.
jason

depends on what your doing???
mine had a SWEET cog.. even though it was like 60ft tall! because of the heavy boat anchors!

Gwagensteve wrote:A) I'm not against spoa, I'm against poorly built cars that don't work. Because of the increased complexity of SPOA, it seems to me that more of these conversions don't work the way they should.

B) I've seen lots of SPOA cars with far more thought put into them than I've ever put into a car. They ought to work much better than a SPUA car and my opinion is based on the fact that as total packages, they don't seem to from what I have seen.

D) Love Mud, you are right, the steering was a major stumbling block and is now cured with a properly engineered solution, but instead there's still plenty of people willing to endorse the quick, cheap workarounds that undo the good work some companies are trying to do to improve the safety of what we are building.

This is one of things that pisses me off about this board. (And I'm not having a go at anyone in particular.) The cheapest quickest solution that gets the car back on the road is not the best. Yes, I do think it costs $2500 to build a high level SPUA car, and think it costs the same to build a SAFE SPOA car (and I have driven some unsafe ones.) My argument is that in a SPOA car more of the safety systems of the car are being interfered with (steering, weight transfer, caster, driveline angles) so there is less room to cut corners.

Once again though, I will get flamed for telling someone a SPOA can't be done in a weekend with a slab and a stick welder.

I don't have any more to add to this topic without ranting or talking in minute specifics about why I prefer a SPOA, or what works where, and this thread has nothing to do with that. It was about questions about a "cheap" lift and I just stated my opinion that SPOA's aren't cheap.


Steve.
[/b]

You make a rather large resounding point there, specially regarding cost vs safety. This was one (not the only of course, bloody QLD) reson I stayed sua.

Red_Zook wrote:

mr green wrote:

In NSW most of the people running spoa are on heavier diffs, which surely helps stability,

are you sure about this, i thought the science says the less unsprung weight the better , so the diffs follow the car not the other way around.
jason

depends on what your doing???
mine had a SWEET cog.. even though it was like 60ft tall! because of the heavy boat anchors!

your joking right

toyota diffs wouldnt even be 40kg heavier combined

Gwagensteve wrote:
SPOA can't be done (safely) in a weekend with a slab and a stick welder

It was about questions about a "cheap" lift and I just stated my opinion that SPOA's aren't cheap. (to do properly)

Steve.
[/b]

Agree with you on most points, but these two I agree 100% as a bloke who is a fan of the SPOA conversion.

redzook wrote:

Red_Zook wrote:

mr green wrote:

In NSW most of the people running spoa are on heavier diffs, which surely helps stability,

are you sure about this, i thought the science says the less unsprung weight the better , so the diffs follow the car not the other way around.
jason

depends on what your doing???
mine had a SWEET cog.. even though it was like 60ft tall! because of the heavy boat anchors!

your joking right

toyota diffs wouldnt even be 40kg heavier combined

philly? this you?



sorry for hijack...