Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I have a friend - a family of 4 with 2 young boys - who's interested in getting his first 4wd, and who has been tallying up all the pros and cons in a spreadsheet with the details of his two preferred choices at the moment.

He recently commented that:

"I’ve been spreadsheeting a few 4WDs lately. The Defender attracts us in that it’s a rugged sort of truck that we’d be less likely to worry about scratching and more likely to go places in. Even the reviews on it that promote it still say though that it’s an “eyes wide open and plan aheadâ€

Defenders are ace but overpriced it seems to me.

I would say the prado will meet his needs.

But these are impressions from someone who hasn't owned either of them.

chimpboy wrote:Defenders are ace but overpriced it seems to me.

and lookin at them, the build quality aint flash.

Ezookiel wrote:I have a friend - a family of 4 with 2 young boys - >but I have no real justification for thinking that, other than rumoured reliability issues etc, but have no personal experience of a Defender

They surely don't come with self-healing features so maintenance shouldn't be skipped if they want a good reliable truck,mine rolled off the production line in 1997 and never gave me big/real issues,and is still going strong.
Plus,if you're friend is happy to play with spanners,he may appreciate the Rover.

Ezookiel wrote:For a person who needs room for a wife and 2 kids, (...) either vehicle will do that without issue

Maybe he would prefer the Toyota here...

I'd take the Defender anyday over anything else especially a Prado,but I don't have kids to carry around.

Has he looked at the Pajero?

Better value for money than a Prado, not bad in the bush (with some good tyres), excellent driving position (for the missus) & makes a fantastic compromise vehicle. A mate of mine used to work at Nat Caps (for a number of years) & raves about them reliability wise. Reckons he doesn't know what the inside of the engines look like.

Prado's are overpriced & the "Toyota reliability" these days is not that far ahead of its competitors, sometimes less so.

Yes camel chasers have poor build quality & can be unreliable (its a Pommy thing) but as Michele said if you look after it it should give you good service.

If he is not that serious about 4being then the softer more road orentated 4WD is the way to go as they are easier to live with day to day which is where most of the travelling is done.

Just my 20c.

I sell Landrovers (amongst other things) and if it's for a family car I would 100% say get the Prado. Better comfort, ride quality, safety, drivability etc etc etc. If it's for a bloke as his work truck or whatever I think the Defender but not for the role that he's after. If he's keen on coming for a drive up our way I'd be happy to spend some time with him, test drive or whatever then head up to the Toyota dealer up the road and I think his mind would be made up. Prado is no slouch off road with it's traction control etc, with an ARB bar up front approach angle is increased and a 2" lift brings the ride height to a very acceptable level.

Cheers, Jeremy

few mates have defenders - one rolled his because of an electrical fault. It seems whenever they are driven something brakes. This time it was the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiPdGha ... re=related

IMO only an idiot would buy a defender. They are the guys at every party trying to justify why their vehicle is better then x when nobody cares and just want to drink beers.

I rate the Prado very highly, on road better then a 100 IFS and off road better too. Also fantastic resale.

cheers bru

bru21 wrote:few mates have defenders - one rolled his because of an electrical fault. It seems whenever they are driven something brakes. This time it was the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiPdGha ... re=related

IMO only an idiot would buy a defender. They are the guys at every party trying to justify why their vehicle is better then x when nobody cares and just want to drink beers.

I rate the Prado very highly, on road better then a 100 IFS and off road better too. Also fantastic resale.

cheers bru

THAT was driver error. He clearly put the clutch in. An electronic fault does not cause a loss in compression!

BUt I agree, the Prado is a better onroad car than the LC100, and from all reports theyre just as capable - if not easier to drive because its smaller. LC100 and Patrol are big fat bastards!

bru21 wrote:They are the guys at every party trying to justify why their vehicle is better then x when nobody cares and just want to drink beers.

Thats funny. The parties I have been to lately are Toyota drivers saying the same thing! Perhaps people are proud of their vehicles and like to talk about them. Its not necessarily bragging.

And, I know you got heated up on Youtube, but it looked like driver error. He looks like he was in high range and stalled. Defenders are manual, which if he stalled it, the engine and gearbox will hold the vehicle on the hill. He pushed the clutch in, or it did have a gearbox problem and jumped out of gear (which makes it slightly less drivers error). But I promise you, electronics wasn't to blame for rolling down a hill backwards.

I'd seriously consider the Paj over the Prado - I have had both (now onto a Troll). Comfort wise the Paj was better, the Prado was more responsive - but it was a modified vehicle and chipped engine. I did have issues with CV's on the Prado (two in 6 months). The paj was great - and a fantastic family car. The Fender - as i looked at these before i turn to the patrol - was good in as much as it seemed capable but certainly i wouldn't use the term comfortable or family car. Though i have mates who swear by them - and they have young kids.

Tell your friend to look at the Mitsu's - the prado is a good car but if you USE it off road then it can be expensive There are plenty of mods that can be done to the Paj - stock std its a very capable car though, as good as a prado i'd say - and in diesel probably better.

Thanks peoples,
I've just emailed him all your responses (and encouraged him to join so he can read them himself)

Not sure how he managed to pick to vehicles at completely OPPOSITE ends of the spectrum to be his final two, but anyway, hope these will help him decide (or probably just send him back to the drawing board for a new set of choices)

Thanks again.
I appreciate your help to help me help him.

Just tell him to get a patrol with a non-busted engine and he'll be sweet.

if the car is for aorund town doing the shopping in etc the prado will win hands down comfort wise. not sure on space for long trips however

If he is looking at using it primarily as a car to take on trips and bush I'd lean more towards a defender.

Yom wrote:Just tell him to get a patrol with a non-busted engine and he'll be sweet.

Do I have the car for him!!!!!!!!

couldn't think of 2 more cars completly oposite.

is he looking to buy new or 2nd hand?

defender is rough ruged and tuffer than a prado.

Playdoh and Defender are not even in the same class, playdoh is a chicks shopping trolley and a defender is about the only purpose built serious offroader available ( troopy is another but so agricultural) . I would say if they are the to choices then stick with the prado as they obviously have no taste in vehicles, the only people who bag landy's are those who have never driven one and those that drive a pos jap 4by. The new fender with the ford puma CRD and 6 spd box is a ripper. Only reason i dont have one is that ther are no factory fitted baby seat attachments otherwise i'd own one now.

bru21 wrote: IMO only an idiot would buy a defender

Oh really...?
Don't tell me.

In this market there are actually 4 choices

1. prado - great truck 4 years ago new ones are too low and crd underpowered
2. Landrover - excellent truck - can be unreliable - very expensive
3. pajero - well fitted out - not as tough off road as competitors
4. Jeep commander - the 3l crd and quadradrive II leave the rest back 20 yards, unique shape and can have clearence issues. Is the best tow vehicle.

Have family with 3 of the 4 and they all service there owners well. Pajero is missing here.

bru21 wrote:few mates have defenders - one rolled his because of an electrical fault. It seems whenever they are driven something brakes. This time it was the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiPdGha ... re=related

IMO only an idiot would buy a defender. They are the guys at every party trying to justify why their vehicle is better then x when nobody cares and just want to drink beers.

I rate the Prado very highly, on road better then a 100 IFS and off road better too. Also fantastic resale.

cheers bru

Your stupid mate rolled his defender because he cant drive. End of story. Only girls and cry babies blame the car for their own dumb mistakes.
The Prado is a good car for a family. It is also bland and characterless.

Ian

that youtube thread is GOLD

So are all the comments posted on the vid.
Such hostility from the very first moment.

amtravic1 wrote: The Prado is a good car for a family. It is also bland and characterless.

Ian

You just described 100% of what Toyota have made since the late 1980's. But as far as Japanese made cars go, you've described around 95% of them.

OK, well, I've now seen his spreadsheet.
He has 4 vehicles on it, the other two are the Pathfinder and the Pajero.
His wife is Peruvian and speaks Spanish, so that might be why he's ruled the Pajero out, as I know that she knows what it means, as I asked her once when the discussion was going on in here about the name.

He says the Pathfinder is more than 1 litre per hundred Kms thirstier than the Prado, so that was why he'd ruled that one out.

I must say, browsing his spreadsheet where he has the lengths widths, heights, engine sizes, ground clearance, approach, departure and rampover angles all tallied (not to mention a pile of other stats), I was quite surprised at the Defender's off-road plusses such as clearance and approach, departure, and ramp-over angles. It blew the opposition away on those figures.

Alas, today he took a ride in a Defender at the local dealer, and looks like that's now ruled itself out, as he's quite tall, and said that he'd be fooling himself if he tried to convince himself that he'd get used to it, or become comfortable in it, because even with the seat at it's furthest back position, he had cramped leg room - the English must be short little buggers.

The local Toyota dealer had no Prados in stock for him to try out - clever dealer that one, have no cars for people to try, great for getting sales. Lucky my mate's not in a rush and still wants to try one, I know I'm a little less forgiving of bad salesplaces, I'd be going elsewhere just on principle.

He said he was going to sign up here, but so far haven't seen his head appear.

Thanks for the very balanced and well stated opinions. It's made the forum look really positive and shown it in a great light as I've cut and pasted all your responses into emails to him.

Thanks again peoples you've really helped me sell him not just on 4wding, but on the 4wd fraternity as a great bunch of really helpful people tolerant of newbie questions.

your mate must be tall im 6.2 and i can stretch my legs all the way out and the defender is a great family car. cheap on fuel and you can't hear the kids whinging or fighting with all the other noise going on and when they throw food everywhere you can clean it allot easier then scrubbing the carpet in a prado .......why would any one want carpet in a four wheel drive anyway

bru21 wrote:few mates have defenders - one rolled his because of an electrical fault. It seems whenever they are driven something brakes. This time it was the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiPdGha ... re=related

There is no way that was caused by an electrical fault the engine may have stopped but it didnt cause the aftermath. Even if the engine cut out it still has compresion to slow it down. It was either in neutral or he had his foot on the clutch. It was an oviouse case of driver error.

And Bru if the comments on the You Tube Video are from you than they have just totally changed my opinion of you. And if they are not then who ever they are from is obviously trying to make out they are from you. As they are refering to your old GQ as their own.

OK, I've just read all the comments on youtube, and I think that blaming it on an "electrical fault" is stretching things.

I've read that the traction control and ABS in some Landies has created problems, so I'll accept that the vehicle may have struggled to climb the hill because the ECU was applying brakes and cutting power. If that's what happened on the climb, sure, blame an electrical fault.

But an electrical fault would not have allowed a manual vehicle to roll backwards if the vehicle was in gear without the clutch depressed - as it should have been. Gearbox or transfer jumped out of gear? OK, I can accept that as the cause of the accident - but how is that an electrical fault?

Perhaps it could be argued that the ABS failed to lock the brakes AFTER the drivetrain jumped out of gear? But many comments posted to youtube blame brake failure on lack of engine vacuum for the brake booster. Because the ECU stalled the engine? That's stretching things too - because engine compression should have held the vehicle on the slope, even if the engine was stopped.

So, as I see it, the accident happened because engine compression wasn't available to hold the vehicle on the hill. That's either mechanical failure (something jumped out of gear when it shouldn't) or a loose nut behind the wheel - everybody makes mistakes. An electrical fault didn't cause the Defender to roll.

Ezookiel wrote:He says the Pathfinder is more than 1 litre per hundred Kms thirstier than the Prado, so that was why he'd ruled that one out.

I must say, browsing his spreadsheet where he has the lengths widths, heights, engine sizes, ground clearance, approach, departure and rampover angles all tallied (not to mention a pile of other stats), I was quite surprised at the Defender's off-road plusses such as clearance and approach, departure, and ramp-over angles. It blew the opposition away on those figures.

Really at the end of the day, most car's with limited mod's (tyres, susp snorkel etc) will get up most track's that your avg punter will try, the one's he wont have a crack at , he probably wouldnt try no matter the car. so it doesn't matter in the slightest what his spreadsheet says about em its WHAT HE FINDS COMFY TO DRIVE! and one he isn't gunna have the stresses and drama's you had with your patrol. The defender was made as primarily as a 4wd, where the other's were made as a city car with 4wd capabilitys. that's why it looks so good on his spreadsheet, personally i think the seating position in them is horrible, but my 6'2" 120kg mate absolutely love's his, horses for courses!

bru21 wrote:few mates have defenders - one rolled his because of an electrical fault. It seems whenever they are driven something brakes. This time it was the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiPdGha ... re=related

amtravic1 wrote: The Prado is a good car for a family. It is also bland and characterless.

Ian

That's what makes them so good to drive. Nothing surprising is going to pop out on you, don't need to do anything odd or unusual to drive it. Just jump in and drive with little thought.

Character may be good for a weekend toy, bland and characterless is what you want from something driven on a regular basis and on long journeys.

RUFF wrote:

bru21 wrote:few mates have defenders - one rolled his because of an electrical fault. It seems whenever they are driven something brakes. This time it was the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiPdGha ... re=related

There is no way that was caused by an electrical fault the engine may have stopped but it didnt cause the aftermath. Even if the engine cut out it still has compresion to slow it down. It was either in neutral or he had his foot on the clutch. It was an oviouse case of driver error.

And Bru if the comments on the You Tube Video are from you than they have just totally changed my opinion of you. And if they are not then who ever they are from is obviously trying to make out they are from you. As they are refering to your old GQ as their own.

Yeah I just read them. all I can say is its not me. I must have an imposter!!!! lol

Driftke70 wrote:

"precisely the reason i got out of 4wding, because all the people into it are arrogant and just purely wankers."

yep I'm building another truck as we speak!

"driftke70, your profile says you are 20 years old which does explain a lot. "

ahh yes they slip up. I'm 25

"im studying for an exam but will get directions when i get the"

I finished uni over a year ago.

"including my race truck that features an upgraded heavy duty clutch, twin transfers and modified flywheel."

nup, std 11" chev, std ls1 flywheel.

Ha ha

The guy that rolled it was my mates little bro with little / no experiance. I heard it was an electrical failure and that his dad nearly did the same thing recovering it. To be honest I didn't really think about it - thought it was auto and they lost vacuum when the motor died or something. I know they had troubles with the computer.

The more I think about the stupider i feel.

sorry all - I'll keep quiet next time I ment it more as a joke and didn't really think. tough crowd.