Outer Limits 4x4 Board

We talked about this on the 4x4wire board, and I believe our Dougy is persuing it for his GenII.... Chime in here with your info, cousin Doug...

...right now I am going through idler bushes once a month. I know you can get brass ones made, etc, but what about getting rid of the idler altogether?

What's your take on using another steering box in place of the idler arm, a "slave steering box", if you will? For you guys it would mean acquiring a LHD box, and for us North Americans, it would mean getting a RHD box. But I wonder how much stronger it would make the frontend?

Problems I see: Would it need to be lubricated, same as an active steering box? If so, could you just plumb it into the same system, and increase the amount of fluid to compensate? Or simply close up the box, and make the fluid captive inside? And how would you seal it? How much of the steering linkage would need to be removed from the dummy box?

Lots of questions, and maybe a waste of time for a GENI? What do you guys think?

PHIL

I like the concept. when comparing the idler arm to the steering box it is a definate improvement on size and strength. Things also worth considering is being able to bolt to the chassis easily to maintain factory steering geometry and to match both sides together, and weather the connecting arms will bolt onto the larger steering box and if they are the correct length. from memory they are symetrical but don't hold me to it. Are the lhd steering boxes readily available over there. i know they would be here.

mike.

I'm not so sure of this mod now..............
I just have a feeling you will be bending/breaking steering rods as there will be no give as like the idler arm has. Thats why it is bushed and not splined like the pitman arm so it can pivot freely if under shock load. If it is fixed rigid instead of knocking it out of alignment something might give instead

Bitsamissin wrote:Thats why it is bushed and not splined like the pitman arm so it can pivot freely if under shock load. If it is fixed rigid instead of knocking it out of alignment something might give instead

Frank, can you PLEASE take a picture of you idler arm. The way you keep describing the part makes me think that we have different types of arms even though both of our trucks are genII's.

My arm consists of the actual steering arm (idler) it is bolted to a long machined shaft through and interference fit. There is no bushing in the connection between the arm, and the machined shaft.

The shaft sits in the idler arm housing, which has a bushing in its body. It is inserted without the arm attached through the top of the housing, and it secured by the tapered fit, and a snap rig at the top.

The only bushing is in the body that the tapered machined shaft sits in. In practice it apears that the bushing doesnt support the shaft along the whole length. It is right here that the metal shaft, which I may add is one strong peice of steel (maybe even tool steel), bends and tweaks.

If a bushing was blowing out, fine, but this just isnt the case. If there were two sturdy connections, two steering boxes for instance, a very beefy center link could be made out of dom or chromo tube. This would put the weak link at the tierods where it belongs. Even these could be upgraded. The tierods should be the weak link, not the bushing in the idler arm, or the idler arm at all.

You want to break something that is easy to fix on the trail, and something that is cheap. The idler arm, atleast in the us genII, is neither.

I dont think a steering box would be that big of a deal, you could gut it, and pack it with grease.

Another idea is to not use a steering box at all. Instead you could probally take a genII idler arm and the machined shaft. Find a better way to support the bottom of the shaft, three bearings maybe, and enclose it in a steel box that mounts in the stock location? The steering box just seems easier.

Frank,

Did you see any used ones yet?

Dougie, I can't get my digicam to download to my PC
Yes my idler assembly sounds the same.
The shaft housing is bolted to the frame with 4 bolts, the machined shaft is supported by 2 bushes inside the housing. The idler arm itself looks to be a press fit to the shaft and then a locknut & pin underneath. The Gen 1 idler arm is bushed where the shaft goes through (2 bushes) and the housing is only bolted to the frame with 3 bolts. A good upgrade for a Gen 1 would be to install a Gen 2 idler assembly, they are much stronger.
I got the urethane bushing kit (2 bushes) and will be doing this next week and also drilling and tapping a hole for a grease nipple in the shaft housing.
If your bending that shaft somethings not right ??
Maybe get a custom shaft machined up out of a much stronger material or flip your balljoints back over to see if it keeps doin it.
And for sure I'd rather be changing tie rod ends than idler assemblies..............

Bitsamissin wrote: A good upgrade for a Gen 1 would be to install a Gen 2 idler assembly, they are much stronger.

Interesting, Vic. Wish to hell there were some genIIs around here to compare to... (the first GenII we got up here was....well, actually, we never got the GenII - just the GenI in "Dodge Raider" trim, and then the GenIII in fall 02). I'll have to get someone stateside to snap me some pics (nudge nudge Cousin Doug! )

Oh, sorry. Don't let my silly GenI utterings take you away from your GenII bizzness...

PHIL wrote:... just the GenI in "Dodge Raider" trim, and then the GenIII in fall 02). I'll have to get someone stateside to snap me some pics (nudge nudge Cousin Doug! )

Phil,

I will take some shots for you this afternoon. I wish I would have taken shots when I had one of them apart and was trying to use a 100ton press to straighten the shaft out.

Personally I think the genI may be flimsier... but it is definetly easier and cheaper to replace. The genII idler is about 65 dollars us for me, and thats with a 20% discount.

Frank,

Your right... something must be wrong. I just cant figure out what it is. Flipping the balljoints should have changed the geometry that much, but it is probally the problem. I am going to try and get my camber perfect.... that might put less stress on the setup. I have too much positive camber right now.

If you could keep your eyes open for a genII steering box in the junkyards, I would apreciate it.

Phil,

The genII think may not be a bad idea, but I dont know if the length of the arm is right or not. Probally not.

The part number is MB831042. 67 bucks from mag auto, which is pretty cheap compared to the whole genI assembly. But you guys dont need to replace that, just the bushes.

I am trying to upload you a pic as I type.

DougH wrote:

Thanks Dougie! Appreciate it!

Here is the GENI piece....



It doesn't look compatible, based on the angle on my main shaft (Frank, get your mind out of the gutter! ) compared to yours.

Guess I'll weld up that idler reinforcement brace that Kary made me. It will make changing out the bushes more difficult, but hopefully less frequent as well...

As for your setup Dougie, I am at a loss. Noone else seems to be replicating this situation, including Vic and company, so I would tend to look at how yours differs from others. Which brings us back to the flipped BJs. I am starting to wonder if the benefits are outweighed by the negatives?

PHIL
PHIL

Ahh just tried to pull mine out and it has a bent shaft I also noticed a slight bend in the steering rod as well.
Maybe check your steering rod Dougie..............
I also found a chassis bracket for a steering damper so it only needs a clamp on the steering rod itself to mount one.
I'll have to get a proper balljoint remover as I couldn't get the bugger out
Dougie have you actually removed the shaft from the housing and what's in there ???

all that time you thought you hadn't bent yours frank and it turns out me and dough weren't the only ones. grantw had bent plenty as well and he didn't have bj spacers either. I liked the idea of a stronger shaft but you may have to pay to send it off to be tested unless you know someone with the facilities to tell you what it is made of now. making that stronger though will most likely then cause somthing else to break like mounting bolts or bushings/housings. perhaps a new longer shaft with a lower bush would work well but would have to come up with some brackets to mount the lower bush as there is nothing that low to mount it onto. and now when you look at the original idea of a second steering box, it makes alot of sense and sure takes alot of the hardwork out of it. especially since our friends have plenty of lh drives and we have plenty of rh drives.

I asked pedders about a steering shocky years ago but they said that our type of steering arrangement didn't require one

mike.

here are some pics i just went and took for referance. sorry bout the quality, i just used my phone cam to take them quickly.
there is two of the idler arm and 2 of the steering box.

you can see the bend in the idler arm shaft pretty easy, just look at the gap get smaller. check out that bumpstop clearance w00t! and thats with my car lifted 3" in the front.

and more

just had another idea guys, if you got a steering box lh or rh it should bolt onto the existing holes and then the arm would just swing around 180° to bolt onto the conecting arms. the direction on the steering wheel shaft is irrelevant cause you can chop that off anyway.

mike.

Yeah I am going to have to find another steering box to check that out. It looks like the bolts might match up. I dont want to take the stock one off to try it out, because I am lazy, and dont want to have to dirty the flare wrenches on a hunch.

Bitsamissin wrote:Dougie have you actually removed the shaft from the housing and what's in there ???

Just a machined shaft, and a tapered housing. There is a pretty large c-clip under that cap, and some washers which look to be spring washers underneath.

No bearings or bushes came out, so I guess they are either manufactured into the unit, or a pressed in really well.

The shaft will pop out without a press... you just need to hammer the fawk out of it.