Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi everyone, (S)
I read but don't post a lot. One thing I keep noticing re Feroza's and petrol Rocky's is a desire to have lower gearing and dif locks. These aside from greater ground clearance, are the 2 most desirable modifications. Ok our vehicles are limited because of their suspension re clearance, but given the numbers of them, surely we could push for after market modifications.
What about coming up with a world wide site which indicates interest for exactly such? Why not engage the engineers front on...How many hundred thousand units would be considered worthwhile financially to the manufacturers? Let's stop regretting these great little off road vehicles shortcomings...Let's start pushing world wide to improve them. I don't need to be able to travel at whatever the maximum highway speed my Ferockies can manage, I would though, enjoy traveling a lot slower in low gear/4/4. I don't thing I am alone in that. I'd like to think that if enough people world wide wanted modifications...they could well be affordable. What say the world wide owners, is there such an interest?

Hi Tansy.... "out of the shadows" at last....

Ok heres the situation as I see it ( and its my opinion, nothing more )

Diff Locks :

Rear - you can get from K&S Tuning in Germany ( about $2700 AU )
Front - nothing at the moment but am working on it.....

The "interesting" thing is that as soon as people find out how much they cost - the interest dries up. I'm currently working on a new locking front, but have not had a single "i'm interested" because it costs real money.

I'm not after any money from people, I'm not selling them - I will do my own regardless of others interest but........

Even mass produced lockers for popular brands are around $1800 all up and fitted - what do people expect for a minority vehicle like a hatsu ? This type of mod is expensive for anything, but for a vehicle that cost a few thousand dollars and has a whole range of issues needing rectifying before its a serious 4x4 it just seems people arn't willing to spend more on the lockers than the car cost.

Gears

Yep there's nothing available, but its the same story here, ages ago I asked if anyone had a busted transfer to get a set of stock gears out of to see what could be done. Not a reply.

It would be the same story on cost - expensive, but as with lockers, they arn't cheap for any vehicle.



So I don't really see it as a can't get issue, it more a matter of people won't spend the $$ to get what they say they want on a Feroza / Rocky.
IMO even if lockers / gears were available at around the same price as say Suzuki bits - I'll bet they still wouldn't sell. The "modify" culture just isn't there with Daihatsu's.


P.S. I have an airlocked rear, 4.3 Transfer Gears, Auto, lifted, widened and about double the suspension travel of stock. None of it easy - but possible.

Diff Locks for rear and front are now being testing by a mechanic here in Greece (he is very slow but he can make them) also you can make transfer gears by sending them in JAPAN the name is YOKO gears. The diff locks will be exactly like the ARB with switches and an air compressor. But for all these you need to much time and money and only few Feroza owners can do that.

ferozamaniac - PM sent.

MightyMouse wrote:


The "interesting" thing is that as soon as people find out how much they cost - the interest dries up. I'm currently working on a new locking front, but have not had a single "i'm interested" because it costs real money.

As MM sumised in his post I think it's because a lot of us can not justify spending upwards of twice the purchase value of the Feroza just for a rear locker, (I know what my answer would be if i asked the handbrake for $5000 for a locker ) Most Diahatsu owners are using thier rocky's/Feroza for "light" offroad stuff, hell most of the Feroza owners around here are young 16-18 year old chicks or retired old guys and while a front and rear locker would be nice the cost (at a guess following MM's posting prices) would be in excess of $5000+the $3000 odd grand a good Fez would cost, for that sort of money I could just go out and buy an old Safari with factory front and rear lockers or pick up a solid axle Hilux with ARB lockers and not have the fundamental (and expensive to modify) shortcomings the daihatsu's have.

Saying that I wouldnt trade my Fez for quids, I love the little beastie and it suits my lifestyle and budget, and out of the box is a pretty good little 4x4 as it runs rings around the Surf and V6 Vitara I used to own) but personally personally i dont think they are worth spending $1000's on unless your a serous daihatsu 4x4 fan and or are building up a dedicated offroad beast. your milage may very

As for places your Fez can go ...with a $500 5000lb winch, LSD, a 2 inch Lift, Mud Tyres and 600kg lighter than stock I can pretty much go anywhere the big boys trucks can go ... just takes me a little longer and one or two more winches, but WTF it's all fun

In relation to the development costs and feasible market, there was an interesting post on Pirate4X4 by an engineer from ARB some time ago. It related to air lockers for rockwell 2 1/2 ton axles.

Turns our development costs for the new locker have blown out and this would lead to a retail of about USD $2K per locker with a normal ARB pricing structure. ARB will sell them at the "normal" retail of I think USD $699 so pricing will be the same as for any other airlocker, but they know that the market for this locker is big and growing.

Unfortunately, Feroza's are a small (and shrinking as the car isn't in production any more) market and that means that a major player like ARB won't develop product.

The correlation between interest in a product, retail price, and actual sales is a large ratio - more than 10:1, so if 500 people said they wanted a feroza locker worldwide at $1800, you'd end up with about 50 sales. If you said $3k, you might get 10... maybe less.

Unfortunately, there's a drawback in owning something different, and that means you have to be more resourceful.

Steve.

Yep - the welder, the last resort.

But I sorta like making stuff, Its just the fixing it when it goes wrong that turns me off.

Besides I have watched others with welded fronts and the frequent getting out to unlock a hub to get driveability back also leaves me less than thrilled.

[img] http://www.pps.net.au/4wdencounter/imag ... locker.jpg [/img] x 2

Not for my front..... don't really like the things in a front application - the rear is another story however - but as I am locked already it isnt an issue.

I want to be able to unlock it completely.

just a thaught ?? (probably a bad one) with the expen$$e of custom
diff/locks, would it be cheaper in the longterm changing to somthing
that has already been prooven, & there is that many more to choose
from already, that their pri$e$ have droped heap$..
EG converting to a hilux leaf front diff housing, I know you all want to
keep them original, & we all want them to make the machanical stuff
of our dreams,but ARB/TJM-ECT want make new shit for discontinued modles (bastards),tojo stuf is a dime/a/dozen with most wreckers now using things as early hilux housings as scrap metal, any way just a thaught

MightyMouse wrote:
Besides I have watched others with welded fronts and the frequent getting out to unlock a hub to get driveability back also leaves me less than thrilled.

Just curous MM, have you notivced that with other Rocky/Feroza's or other makes of 4x4's? just wondering cause the Fez can well and truely out turn the hi-lux/patrol/Mu/Surf/Saf/Vitara 5drs/etc in 4wd (the only thing that seems to out turn/have the same turning radius is the old Sj4** models and 3dr Scuds),

As a matter of interest it's one of our clubs wet grass games... see who can make the smallest do-nut and fig 8 around a marked course in the best time. *and break the most CV's doing it Toyota's seem to win that one a lot

surely even doubling it's turning radius with the welded front diff it would still be reasonbly agile im really still not decided myself now about welding the front dif on mine, the winch (and a fit teenage son) sort of negates the need

edit for below post ... mines a f300 Fez

I don't know about fez's but my rocky has a woeful turning circle. And even with 235/75/15's the tires scrub on the springs at full lock so that really doesn't help

IMO the Feroza has a good turning circle, something I want to keep, and even with the front suspension changes there is no issue with large tyres hitting on the chassis ( guards are a different story ).

As for the effects of welding - it seems to me that the types of tracks people drive have a huge effect on whether it becomes a pain or not. - and I'm getting old and lazy so......

Many of the local tracks are reasonably tight and I have watched the mechanically front locked zooks back and shunt to get around corners that I drive easily. The blocks of flats on wheels - same story.

The front locker is for me an "emergency" use item only, I certainly don't want / need it in very often but for off camber stuff where the Mouse tends to lift a front wheel that's when it will make all the difference.

The rear however - if I was watching the $$$ - I would weld it immediately - a locked rear makes a huge difference ( as do gears )

check out the FEZ in vechicles 4 sale.. this is the sort of thing I was
talking about,, not the V6, but the hilux front end,shurley a hilux
front end conversion/locker while retaining the original rear diff,the
only minor set back would be matching diff ratios,, but there is that
many varietys of tojo ratios out there this shouldnt be too hard

That's Besty's old beast.

A SAS can be done ( Besty's ) but its problem is that the shape of the Feroza chassis rails doesn't lend itself to a solid axle as theres very little bow in the front rails. Matching the ratios is no problem - 5.285 is a Toyota and Feroza ratio, I'm already running a toyota rear.

By the time you get 50mm of compression travel and clear the diff the thing ends up too high for my liking. If you look at the pictures of Besty's you will see that the wheels really sit below the vehicle.

I really am aiming for stability, I want the body as low as is practical with the wheels traveling within the wheel arches as much as is possible anyway. Having has lots of bad experiences with early zooks - sideways really spooks me. and whilst I admit that lots of lift looks cool for my sort of driving its a problem.

As for cost, its way cheaper to make a front and rear locker for the Feroza, and if your into it, completely legal - without spending a bucket on engineering a SAS . Fitting a 100 series IFS diff would be way easier than a SAS but still more costly than a custom locker.

And just to clear up a potential misunderstand - I have the facilities and contacts available to do it myself ( with some expert help ) - so it pretty cost effective

hey MM couldnt agree with you more RE: stability, I still havent got
all my confidence back after the last roll I had in the pig (witch rote it off)
& diff/sump clearence has always been an issue for me.but unfortunatly
I am now a commited modifyer(who should be commited to the nut house)
& when you start where do you stop,I am currantly working on the
stability problem by putting 2006 GU running gear with 4.88 ratios under her
& legnthing the wheelbase by 4",should be better,until next mod

I saw besty's old car between wattle glen and diamo today. Looks like it's on about 33" AT's. Good to see it's still on the road.

Steve.

Perhaps we should start the COMOD society ( COmitted MOdifiers of Daihatsu's) - can probably find a room in a local mental institution for our meetings - and the docs' would probably love to study us.

As for sump clearance what about a slant motor like a BMW which IIRC has its sump on the passengers side and could be dry sumped to give even more room. Lots of grunty BMW's

Or get really weird - what about a WRX engine - the boxer 4's should be pretty flat and have oodles of grunt. Inner guards would have to go but who cares ?

Hmmmmmmm.... I wonder.......

meece4x4.. how did you mount a winch??

I have a pic of a guy driving a widetrack with and ARB winch bar on it.. but when i went to ask ARB, they were as suprised as me.
Then again.. the car also had a genuine Airflow snorkel... and the dude didnt even drive off road

Some people have all the luck

Tzi wrote:meece4x4.. how did you mount a winch??

with a great deal of f%$king difficulty!

I had to make up a custom frame using 40mmx3mm walled rolled steam pipe this stuff has no seam and is strong as hell (out of one of our old Navy Frigites) that uses the chassis rails for the bottom anchor point again with 6mm plates and high tensile bolts,and replaced the factory bumper brackets with new ones made from 6mm plate, the top bar is bolted onto the new bracket at the top, the winch was rotated 90 deg so the base plate is vertical, mouted this way it significantly reduces the shear stress on the baseplase (and permanatly part of the frame) Doing this means you lose the factory mounting holes for the fairlead so you will have to make up a frame to mount the fairlead on.

heres a pic with it temp mounted while i was fabricating the new bumper mounts (the ones here are the original factory ones)

heres it all completed and the bumper back on, You have to trim it a little to fit, just used a jigsaw with a steel cutting blade. In Feb Im going to build a custom steel bar bumper for it just been waiting to recover enough from my surgry to be able to do it.

I have stalled out the 5000lb winch using a snatch block (so it would be closer to a 8000lb pull) so shes good and strong The one thing that does make it tricky is the lack of strong mounting points under the Fez, not a lot to attach anything to. Oh one thing i had to loose was the factory bash plate, however I plan to make up a 5mm Aluminuim checker plate one anyway when i finally get around to making the new bumper.

btw you will find that the ARB on the Fez was prob a cutup and remodeled Zuk one ... guy i know over here has modified a Scud one to fit, lots of work but sh#t it looks good, does cut the entry angle down heaps tho.

cool, thanks for the info.
Dont really mind if its a bit of work, so long as its doable

here is a pic of the guy with the arb bar...It looks a little wide, but I didnt check the model number on the bar, so i dont know what its off.
Guys at arb reckon its off a bigger car cos of the 2nd brace through it.

Tzi wrote:cool, thanks for the info.
Dont really mind if its a bit of work, so long as its doable

here is a pic of the guy with the arb bar...It looks a little wide, but I didnt check the model number on the bar, so i dont know what its off.
Guys at arb reckon its off a bigger car cos of the 2nd brace through it.

oh I soooooo want to get that little fez DIRTY!

needs
Muddys and a lift tho

heres some pics of mine - before it got wide....





The grey bits are the winch cradle.

Built from scratch which is effectively two 6mm end plates ( matching the bar profile ) that pick up strengthened bar mounts - joined by 25x50mm thick wall RHS sections which actually carry the winch. RHS strengthed by solid bushes where the winch mounting bolts are fitted and 45 Deg. braces at the ends.

Number plate is hinged over the front of the fairlead so its not highly visible - in fact get the occasional "what winch"......

Tzi wrote:here is a pic of the guy with the arb bar...It looks a little wide

Actually it looks the right width. Most of the widetrack made bars (ARB,TJM, genuine Daihatsu accessory etc.) had the corner loops go full width and level to the outer edge of the flares. Where as one like a Bocar had the bumper section go full width, but the corners follow the bodywork (basically using the same bar work for widetrack and narrow track)

That bar would be a genuine ARB Feroza F310 Winch Bar. The sales of them would have been incredibly low, so your local ARB guys may not have ever even seen or sold one, so unsure about it, and yes they did come with those additional cross bars.

Besty had a factory ARB bar on his widetrack feroza.

Steve.

I have heard of these Airflow snorkels and would love one, but is the one shown for a Feroza ? IIRC something else is a "close" fit but ......



If you look at the top it seems a pretty average fit to the A pillar

If anyone does know where to get a genuine snorkel or one that fits would love to know

Yes some more info for the snorkel it looks very fitted with our feroza

afraid i cant help much with the info... its only the second feroza that i have seen with an airflow snorkel... all others have had custom pipe.
I dont actually know the guy.. I just stopped him to take some photos