Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hi all,
can anyone help me out in what you have to do to run hilux diffs as i am building a suzuki now?
and i want to run 35s as well anythings i have to watch out for??

thanks for anyhelp

Search is your friend... Then ask specific questions as im sure its all been covered before.

thanks for ya help but posts would be easyer

sorry for hijacking. but how hard is it to put lux diffs on a sierra? as in cost of doing it, engineering it, how long it will take.

thanks

How long's a piece of string? Too many factors to consider how much it would cost. Depends on price of parts, labour, how much you can do yourself etc etc.

what is involved in doing it? i could probably do most of it

AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH

Seriously, do a #$%%# search.

There's heaps and heaps of threads on hilux diffs.

Both of your questions are impossible to answer based on the questions asked.

The question you need to ask yourselves is why you want to run these diffs. Are you sick of breaking stuff? have you investigated stronger parts for sierra diffs and can't justify the cost?

You need to ask actual questions. We can only help people who want to help themselves. we're not going to write a novel to answer a question that's been answered, discussed and debated for years on this board.

(And IMHO, if you really must ruin a sierra, use 60 series or MQ patrol diffs, they're a better option than hilux. the hilux trend only exists because yanks did it first and everyone else just copied - they're not the best option)

Steve.

i just want a wider track. im thinking of going to bigger offset

Yeah, that's an option, but the increased leverage and the added guard chopping caused by the blowout in scrub radius can be a hassle. If you can live with the drawbacks of big offset, it, it's a lot less work than swapping diffs.

If you have a WT, MQ patrol are much easier to deal with than hilux (steering, diff offset, diff ratio etc) if you want to stay SPUA.

If you're spoa, 60 series might be better as the cast spring pad on the MQ front diff can't be done spoa very easily.

either way, going to heavier diffs will sap HP , lower your COG , increase your track width reduce your ground clearance reduce your breakage but will guaranteed be more work and more $$ than you are currently thinking.

Steve.

ive got spoa now.

Gwagensteve wrote:Y
either way, going to heavier diffs will sap HP , lower your COG , increase your track width reduce your ground clearance reduce your breakage but will guaranteed be more work and more $$ than you are currently thinking.

Steve.

For a Sierra with offset rims and crawlers to still be able to walk all the lines you did just alot cheaper............

Gwagensteve wrote: Seriously, do a #$%%# search.

X infinity gazillion

MUD-PIGSIERRA wrote:
For a Sierra with offset rims and crawlers to still be able to walk all the lines you did just alot cheaper............

Oh I know, but some people just can't see it.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: (And IMHO, if you really must ruin a sierra, use 60 series or MQ patrol diffs, they're a better option than hilux. the hilux trend only exists because yanks did it first and everyone else just copied - they're not the best option)

Steve.

mq have no after market support
cast center section on the front
and are alot wider

60 series have like a 9.5" crown wheel or something huge like that
are another 4 inches or there bouts wider then hilux

hilux diffs are 2 inches wider a side then sierra so still can keep it looking road legal
have the best aftermarket support out there
normally alot more spares available (if you break)
lots of gearing options

i dont see how they are not the best option out there?

Here we go...... again

Track widths wms - wms
NT Sierra 49
WT Sierra 52
Hilux 55.5"
MQ 58"
60 series 58"
40 series 56"

So that puts the width thing to rest.

MQ front spring pad width is almost identical to sierra, they all but bolt in.

I can't see any issue with support for MQ - airlockers aren't a problem and ratios from 4.3-4.88 are pretty useful for suzukis. Front CV strength is adequate for 33-35" tyres in a suzuki and spares are $33 from wreckers. the diff offset is compatible. The rear diff is plenty strong ehough. The whole idea of big diffs in sierras is not having to spend $$ on them in bling parts - stock hilux/patrol/cruiser is strong enough in a lighter car. (I thought?)

The cast centre on the MQ is pretty small - no bigger than hilux - what's the problem with it?

Steering is heaps easier and cheaper to deal with on the MQ and cruiser, as it is already crossover.

Cruiser diffs can be shaved pretty successfully, and the rear is a full floater.

A 70 series front would be the best front sierra diff IMHO.

I can't agree with running a centred rear diff in a swb sierra as "the best option out there, especially when its lumped in with expensive steering work, marginal width/scrub radius, and semifloating rear axles.

I'm already known for believing swapping heavy diffs under sierras is dumb, but if you have a real need (and I don't believe there is one at 33 or 35" in a road/track driven car) the at least pick the most suitable diffs, not something based on what's been done in the US.

Steve.

I've seen a zook with calmini 5 inch lift, 1.5inch B/L and 36" swampers on zook diffs. Why do you need hiluxes?.....

Weigh up a set of longfields versus all the diff swap stuf and you won't be out of pocket and still have a purebred (or close enough) zook

There's no way a sierra with 36" swampers will be reliable with stock sierra diffs. Just no way. Additionally, sierra diffs are too narrow to permit full lock with sensible rim offset.

I've played with and driven a sierra with 36" swampers, 1.6 16V, dual transfers and sierra diffs. it could break CV's and rear axles easily, and I've broken 1 rear axle and twisted another with 34" swampers and a 660cc motor, on a fairly low traction surface. I was getting on it, but that's not the point.

I don't argue that sierras need more axle strength than stock, I just disagree with the best way of achieving it. Adding axle housings, brakes, hubs etc designed for massive weight carrying to gain .2" of axle diameter doesn't seem to make sense, but I accept it's very cost effective, which is why I advocate using the cheapest, easiest to fit diffs for the job, which I maintain is MQ.

I'm a masochist, so I'm trying to build the lightest diffs possible that will be strong enough for my use - 5.12 geared vitara rear centred full floating axles with doubletough CV's and sierra front hubs in the rear. A bigger diff swap would be cheaper and would definitely yield stronger and more reliable wheel bearings, but at the expense of LOTS of weight, which I want to avoid. I'd also loose gearing unless I bought 5.29 R&P's for toyota (more $$$) then I'd need new rims, none of my existing spares would work, I'd have the same or worse ground clearance.... and I like the idea. But also, I own everyhting except the axle shafts, whch I can get made in a high strength material, proab;y matching the shaft strength of a heavier diff like a patrol.

Steve.

imo hilux diffs are a good choice as complete diffs + spares are so easily available and are quite affordable...+ easy to install.....also as said above the gear ratios + aftermarket gear is awesome(better than mq's).... ........

60 series diffs are good, but pricey and not as easy too find as the hilux items.

MQ's are too big for a zook (you will hang up on the diffs everywhere ).................and the cast front sucks!!!

p.s Gwagensteve- why do you think hilux diffs are so popular with the yanks/and us??????!!!!!!!!......................obviously they are a good option

Gwagensteve wrote:
I'm a masochist, so I'm trying to build the lightest diffs possible that will be strong enough for my use - 5.12 geared vitara rear centred full floating axles with doubletough CV's and sierra front hubs in the rear. A bigger diff swap would be cheaper and would definitely yield stronger and more reliable wheel bearings, but at the expense of LOTS of weight, which I want to avoid. I'd also loose gearing unless I bought 5.29 R&P's for toyota (more $$$) then I'd need new rims, none of my existing spares would work, I'd have the same or worse ground clearance.... and I like the idea. But also, I own everyhting except the axle shafts, whch I can get made in a high strength material, proab;y matching the shaft strength of a heavier diff like a patrol.

Steve.

This was kinda my point. You can build it to fit huge tyres on sierra diffs and with the right parts can make it last. I'm pretty sure some 36" tyres could cause stock hilux diffs some grief too. The aftermarket gear is available to make near bullet proof sierra diffs, you just need to looks to America.

muz_ook wrote: 60 series diffs are good....

MQ's are too big for a zook (you will hang up on the diffs everywhere ).................and the cast front sucks!!!

p.s Gwagensteve- why do you think hilux diffs are so popular with the yanks/and us??????!!!!!!!!......................obviously they are a good option

NOt ahving a go MuZook, I;m interested in your opinion -
Have you measured an MQ rear diff next to a cruiser diff? If a 60 series diff is "good" I can't see how an MQ is too big.

What's the problem with the cast centre?

GRPABT1 - no diff is "unbreakable" On a $$$/strength basis, it does make sense to just put a big heavy diff under the car. I can't see the advantage in victoria because diff clearance and unsprung weight are issues ( a car with tiny diffs and 33's will do better than a car with big diffs and 36's) but on rock where diff clearance isn't as much of an issue and unsprung weight is an advantage, then it might become viable. Under very high traction and with the low gearing easily achieved in a sierra, the torque loads on the axles are enormous.

For me, it still comes back to what larger diff is the right option, and just because something is cheap, available and readily swapped doesn't make it right.

Here's a couple of old photos of Mock's (ljxtreem) critta running a shaved MQ rear and 36" swampers. For what Mock was aiming for with this car, I don't think Sierra diffs were ever going to cut it.

This is a useful shot of rear diff clearance.


And another - not the best photo. the front was widened 4" as this car had NT spring spacing and Mock wanted to keep it. The front pumpkin was smoothed . At this tyre size, diff clearance wasn't a significant problem.



Yes, both diffs had been dragging, but the ruts are insanely deep in this area so it's inevitable.

This car was immune from breakage with about 125:1 crawl and a 1.6 efi with these tyres. Mock stepped up to 39" michelins and on rock it would break CV's easily in Low/Low, but it was the mostly the weight of the Michelins that did it. I drove it in the first Oz Rock and once back on the swampers breakage wasn't an issue.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: NOt ahving a go MuZook, I;m interested in your opinion -
Have you measured an MQ rear diff next to a cruiser diff? If a 60 series diff is "good" I can't see how an MQ is too big.

What's the problem with the cast centre?

i have not measured the mq but just by eye they are quite a large diff centre,they are also very wide, may be a little too wide for a road driven rig , my opinion is that the hilux diffs are a good choice (maybe not the best) for the size of them compared to the car. and they are plenty strong enough. can run 37's with no dramas. the only disadvantage is the centred rear centre, but can be overcome with out too much drama.

the cast front on the mq's makes it more difficult than it has to be to do spring over if you head that way.

i think the suzana diffs in my rig are close to one of the best pair of diffs for a sierra. better than all the above.......but thats my opinion........

I agree about the suzana's being the ultimate sierra diff for sure. Spidertrax sidewinders would have to have been unbeatable.

Greg and I looked very very hard at these for his car, but with NT spring spacing and SPUA, there was no way we could get the front housing in- it was too wide to clear the spring pad, sump etc, but being able to use sierra unis in the knuckles and vitara centres would have been cool.

As for MQ width - the cars I have seen running MQ's have always had 8 or 10" rims etc so It's hard to say, but running some heavily backspaced 7's should keep width sane for road use, and also permit small scrub radius to reduce guard cutting, keep the steering light, limit death wobbles etc. Outright, they're only 30mm/side wider than hilux.

I agree about MQ's and SPOA - it does make it harder than necessary for sure, but not everyone who's breaking suzuki stuff is SPOA (or can/wants to go SPOA) As has been discussed before, it's not an option in Qld and has very little or no advantage in Vic AFAIK.

Another little trick for strong suzuki diffs is to eliminate the crush sleeve. many sierra diffs fail because the crush sleeve collapses and allows the pinion to walk forwards and back, eventually trashing the ring and pinion. on locker equipped cars, cars with short tailshafts or and the front, these seems to be a big problem. A nissan style solid spacer and shims can be fitted removing this problem.

Steve.

How come nobody has mentioned Bundy diffs? I know they are from the hilux family, and are generally a little dearer than hilux but the offset rear is great for a sierra. I ran 36's on my zook with Bundys and a V6 commadore boat anchor over the front diff and never broke a thing.

And IMO MQ aren't a bad option at all. My mate picked up a pair for a case of XXXX gold toilet water

You're spot on. Bundy is the best option for the rear based on centre size and offset and they don't have the massive weight of some of the bigger diffs. Steering is also correct.

Not as cheap as Hilux or MQ though, as you pointed out - MQ's can be had incredibly cheaply.

I am aware that the offset issue can be dealt with in a LWB, but in a shorty it would be very hard to deal with, especially with some lift.

all 70 series after late 1991 have a high pinon hilux sized centre in the front too. very helpful to allow caster and lift without having to turn knuckles.

i guess the mq's are good when staying sua, and i have heard that they can be quite heavily shaved to get some good ground clearance

Found some better photos.

We rolled the rear up a fair way to make the most of the shave. The front diff was smoothed, but is pretty small anyway. I made some countersunk spring plates to maximise clearance at the spring.

There was less than 3mm between the crownwheel and the housing when we had finished.

In practice with 36's, diff clearance wasn't a big problem.
Mock had some breakages with MQ's in competition in the rodent, but I don't think that's comparable to track use.

A this car had NT spring spacing, we had to cut a fair way into the housing at the rear to get the spring pad in. As I have said, the front only works with WT spacing, so the cut in the rear won't be as dramatic.











Steve.

redzook wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote: (And IMHO, if you really must ruin a sierra, use 60 series or MQ patrol diffs, they're a better option than hilux. the hilux trend only exists because yanks did it first and everyone else just copied - they're not the best option)

Steve.

mq have no after market support
cast center section on the front
and are alot wider

60 series have like a 9.5" crown wheel or something huge like that
are another 4 inches or there bouts wider then hilux

hilux diffs are 2 inches wider a side then sierra so still can keep it looking road legal
have the best aftermarket support out there
normally alot more spares available (if you break)
lots of gearing options

i dont see how they are not the best option out there?

x2 tim