Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi all,

Boredom and trying out my new tablet PC are as much reason as any other for this post But I'm interested in experienced Zooker's opinions if you feel like giving them.

The aim of my mods are to give me a safe, reliable Zook that happily carts me 400+ k's per week with a boot load of work gear but then on the weekend is able to keep up with mildly modded Landies, Patrols etc.

I enjoy technical driving rather than planting my foot and praying something doesn't break, and if I can't clear an obstacle/get traction/whatever I'll find a way round rather than get frustrated at not having 35" swampers and a turbo'd 1.6L EFI (no disrespect to those who do ... just explaining how I drive). I keep pretty busy most weeks so don't like spending much time with a wrench, and keeping it stockish helps things survive

Current mods / fitout of my 1993 WT Sierra hardtop are:

- 235/75R15 Goodyear MTRs on 15x7" Sunnies (-12 offset)
- 2" extended shackles + seam bashing
- thorough 1.3L engine rebuild, new radiator, clutch, etc
- swaybar removed
- bullbar similar to Christover's (edges cut away)
- towbar with removeable tongue
- Lightforce 170 spotties in front of grille
- ROLA Sports roof racks
- chilly aircon
- small thermofan crammed between radiator and grille
- Tomtom One satnav
- MP3 CD player for trips
- usual recovery gear + manual winch
- first aid kit

Mods in the works at the moment are:

- rear Lockrite ready to go in
- EL alternator ready to go in
- 2" body lift on its way ... thanks just cruizin'
- bullbar lift
- recovery points (should have been in a lot earlier! poor tiedown points )

Planned mods are:

- front Lockrite ... have locker; need 4 pinion carrier
- snorkel with air breathers alongside for diff, transfer and dizzy
- 90Ah gel cell boxed in under passenger seat (sitting on chassis) with dual battery management for camping
- storage shelves for work / camping gear
- Projecta Typhoon air compressor
- UHF
- work lights rear
- modify rear bumper so I don't bash rear lights against things
- replace indicators in bullbar with spread beam driving lights and move indicators/parkers to alongside headlights
- bash plates if and when i find things vulnerable
- powdercoat / paint bullbar (angle grinder finish where I've trimmed it ain't great)
- possibly gears at some stage. want to get a fair few trips under my belt with it locked front and rear before i jump in with gears, especially as i've been just a webwheeler for the last six months. opinions about best suited gear set would be great though, keeping in mind it's daily driven so 5000rpm @ 100kph ain't great

Other Stuff

- getting a custom trailer built with tyres/rims and track width to match the Zook and fitting trailer mount tent. basically copying christover's brilliant build up but doing it the easy way and getting a trailer company to make the trailer depending on trailer manufacturer's schedule I'm hoping it'll be together by Easter for a test trip. have dreams of bench and sink on rear tailgate, onboard water tank, etc
- fit bigger rims to my sailing boat trailer so it tows easier on the sand (currently 9" rims....)

So they're my plans. Any suggestions of what else I should do to round out my build?

Cheers,
Moph

Sorry i cant help with any suggestions, but i'm in a very similar position to you. so im eager to hear what the others suggest!

i also have a tintop w/t. 235/75/15 with -12x7 sunnies and i am about to cut my front bumper up and fit 2" shackles!

p.s would you have any pics of your modded front bar by any chance?

Keep reading, keep searching. All the info is on here somewhere.

Enjoy the car, drive it offroad and you'll soon know what suits you, your driving style and your terrain and then what you need to change.

As for your gearing question. Are you going to forever stay of 235/75s? You might get away with it stock, or 4.16s have the least high range reduction at about 12-13% lower than standard. But if you then go bigger tyres later on you'll wish you had gone lower in the gearing. I'm daily driving mine, and 31s with Trail Gear 6.5s is around 3500rpm at 100kmh. Pretty close to standard. Once again, search is your friend on that one too.

Mal

I think you have overlooked the vital importance of gears. There are three areas where gears will be a major benefit:

Whilst I'm sure your engine is fresh and performing well, you have and will add more weight over the course of your modifications, as well as towing a trailer. You will need to gear your car back to stock, or marginally under stock to have reasonable performance, especially with the trailer.

When you add the lockers - once you have more traction, you have more load on the engine. The car ends up feeling like it's geared really tall because you can't bleed off any speed through wheelspin. All other things being equal, the more traction you have the more gears you need.

The setup your running sounds like it wants 31's... you'll really want gears then.

4.9's would be OK for your application I think

In relation to the other stuff, you haven't mentioned diff/transfer breathers?

Steve.

I know there's heaps of info on here, mal ... I've read probably 50% of the suzuki threads great stuff!

i've reasoned out most of my mods based on info i've found on outerlimits and am pretty happy with the list of mods i've done / have planned. so search isn't really relevant anymore as i have searched each and every tech item on my list and made my decision based on the great advice that has already been given.

so what I'd appreciate now (if and only if people want to give it) is suggestions of things i may want to consider and haven't. like, have i considered the fact that dual lockers on 235/75R15s will cause my axels to snap like twigs if i don't have fluffy dice hanging from the mirror ya get the drift...

i'm pretty happy with my Zook and think it'll feel complete once i'm finished. i've wheeled it a fair bit with the 'current mods' list (except the engine rebuild) so have a fair idea where i'm heading.

will most likely stay with 235/75R15 unless some compelling reason comes along to upgrade. maybe when my MTRs wear out, if 31's are cheaper. i haven't found any probs with diffs bottoming out on trails yet - i just sit one wheel in the rut and the other rides the centre mound cos of the narrow wheelbase. And current to 31's it is only an extra 1/2" or so clearance under the diff pumpkin - in most cases you can gain keep an extra couple of inches under your diffs by choosing your line carefully. Keeps the 'challenge' factor up so that i don't have to search too hard for challenging tracks.

Plus the bigger the wheel diameter, the more stress I'm putting on unis, axles, diffs, etc which means more spanner time ... also more likely to need gears.

thanx steve you squeezed your post in between zookimal's post and my reply. cheers for your great advice.

i definately did intend to put this item on Mods Planned list ... just forgot it

- snorkel with air breathers alongside for diff, transfer and dizzy

i see your point re weight. i have probably added 120kg in lockers, bullbar, battery, recovery gear, bigger tyres + spare, etc. trailer fully laden will be about 400kgs plus say 100kgs camping gear in the back = 620kgs total over stock which is about 60% of Zook's unladen weight

i'm interested in your comment re "sounds like it wants 31's". Is it just the extra clearance that causes you to say that, or other advantages (eg availability of tyres out in the sticks)?

I put the 235/75R15s on originally as i didn't have money/time spare for lift as well, but think i should just be able to fit 31s now with 2" shackle extension, 2" body lift and seam bashing. Would have to wear out MTRs first though (80,000k?) or wife will kill me

Hmmm apologies zookimal ... just checked a tyre diameter calculator and its more like a 2" difference (so 1" clearance). incorrectly remembered 235/75R15 as being 30" not 29" diameter.

Moph wrote: i'm interested in your comment re "sounds like it wants 31's". Is it just the extra clearance that causes you to say that, or other advantages (eg availability of tyres out in the sticks)?

I put the 235/75R15s on originally as i didn't have money/time spare for lift as well, but think i should just be able to fit 31s now with 2" shackle extension, 2" body lift and seam bashing. Would have to wear out MTRs first though (80,000k?) or wife will kill me

I think what he means is that a 2" body lift will let you run the 31" tyres without bumpstop extensions. The 2" bodylift is really unecassary for 235 tyres, but should be quite good for 31" tyres, allowing the full uptravel.

And yes, for 31" tyres you do want gears .

yeah, 2" bodylift is not to clear the 235/75R15's ... drivers side front tyre was munching guard on full compression, right full lock but extended shackles fixed that.

my reasoning behind the body lift is:
1) raises side sills - less chance of damaging them when in deep ruts on a lean, or on ramp overs with rocks both sides
2) allows me to raise bullbar - better approach angle. Think depature angle is limited by towbar cross member not rear bumper
3) gives room to fit gell cell below passenger seat which at about 35kg mounted to chassis helps offset CG change caused by raising body 2"
4) looks good

actually i just measured my MTRs and at 20PSI they're 28 1/4" vertically (due to weight of car) and 29" horizontally. didn't realise they were so small! so looks like 31s would give at least 1" extra diff clearance over current, especially 31x10.5R15's on 7" rims.

bugga. the three of you have me rethinking what tyres i put on my trailer now (want to keep it same as Zook for spares)

lilzook here's the dodgy photochop i did to work out how i wanted to cut my bullbar. won't take a photo of it at the moment as it's in the garage covered in dust and cobwebs the photo was taken just after i bought the car and fitted the MTRs, pre extended shackles



lightforce's are fitted in front of the grille. at some stage i think i'll paint it black. haven't shifted the indicators/parkers out of the bullbar yet. will wait till i find some el-cheapo driving lights that fit

I wouldn't cut the bar like that if I were you. Once you cut them, alloy bars loose nearly all of their strength, and the one area you need the protection, the front corner, is gone. You will cop a lot of hits to the front corners like that. Wouldn't do it on a DD that's that clean.

Bear in mind, Payload for a sierra is 450Kg. I don't have a GCM figure for one, but I am aware that unbraked trailer is (from memory) 500kg, 750kg braked.

Payload is calculated from DRY weight. so subtract fuel, coolant, oils, driver etc. It's very easy to exceed GVM in a sierra and then everything suffers.

My comments re 31's were mostly that with a 2" BL, 31's are the logical choice, plus, you already have the correct rims, and most gearsets (which you will need anyway) offset 31's very nicely. 31's are cheap, common, and do add a lot of capability.
Steve.

Hmmmm. How has christover kept his front clip from being belted up?

I think payload is under control steve. mods 120kg + me and the missus 135kg + 60kg fluids + 100kg camping gear + 45kg hitch load from trailer = 460kg ... just over max payload. Betta skip HJ's for lunch Actually 100kg camping gear might be a bit much ... I'm allowing for a fridge in there (50kg loaded?) so probably not room for much more gear once that's in.

According to trailer builders, trailer should be 180kg + 50kg tent + 25kg spare wheel + 2x20L jerries + 40L onboard water + 50kg stored gear = 385kg ... less than 450kg allowable.

It is a lot for a zook (and totting up the weight is convincing me that gearing is going to be an issue) but driven sensibly and taking the trailer only on national park entry roads and fairly easy stuff should hopefully be okay.

Will have a serious look at Trail Tough (and other brand) 4.9's. What you're saying about traction from lockers making gearing feel tall makes perfect sense, and 1st low with 235/75R15s and no lockers wasn't exactly brilliant. Will get the lockers in and drive it a bit, then make a decision. Tyres will have to wait $$$

Any suggestions on how to get the 4.9's past the missus

i didnt read the other's long posts, but i dont think you should do the 2" shackles - it will yeild 1" of lift, but it changes a lot of geometry as its only lifting the leaf at one end.

if 31's is your goal and you want a reliable DD, i'd suggest 2" spring lift and 2" bodylift - if you're carrying a heap of weight, enquire about stiffer springs - however this will mean when its not loaded itll be like driving a go kart (get yourself a kidney belt).

if you do go to 31's though youll need to consider the terrain youll be driving - if you're doing beach work then gearing probably isnt worth addressing as most of it is higher speed - however if you're doing rocks and slippery stuff you're going to need a driveable low range where you dont have to go in a 40km/hr and smash things =) (trust me i know)

Moph wrote: Any suggestions on how to get the 4.9's past the missus

I ordered my 4.9s whilst I was still running 27" tyres. My reasoning was, my transfer has done the rear seal, and I'm not fixing that, when I can rebuild another case and put gears in it (you never know when another seal might go, so lets fix them all). I did not have to justify it to anyone though, and just bought them.

BTW I ran the 4.9s and 27" tyres for one whole day, no thanks not again, it sucks on road, and my Sierra is daily driven. Though its not as bad as running 31" and no gearing did that for a week before the gears went in.

Moph wrote:Hmmmm. How has christover kept his front clip from being belted up?

You are joking aren't you?



Christover's car has had more hits than elvis. His secret is that the stock color is very close to a stock heritage green colour so it gets touched up often and encouraged back into shape with a BFH.

I've got a full uncut ARB bar on mine and both guards and the bonnet are screwed up. (I am currently super narrow though which makes it worse, but the front corners are just really vulnerable.)

Steve.

alien wrote:the 2" shackles - it will yeild 1" of lift, but it changes a lot of geometry as its only lifting the leaf at one end.

if 31's is your goal and you want a reliable DD, i'd suggest 2" spring lift and 2" bodylift - if you're carrying a heap of weight, enquire about stiffer springs - however this will mean when its not loaded itll be like driving a go kart (get yourself a kidney belt).

I would have to agree
Get some actual lift with some springs,
if you only do the shackles like previously said, only 1" lift, add the extra weight and carying a trailer, those standard springs wont last long before they go flat and useless.
also consider your shockies when doing any suspension work, extra weight + towing + extended shackles. if your sticking with stock ones?? the 1" probably wont make to bigger a deal but, it only takes 1 good hit at full compression to blow a shockie out, and if the shockie dosent have any more reach in it but your spring wants to keep droping then this can damage it aswell!
most 2" lifted kits come with shocks to match,
its when you do undefined lifts with shackles and drop shackles that can cause probs with shockies.

just my 2c

no probs steve, i get the idea ... cut alloy bar = bad idea

love christover's method of getting to his tranfer case and diffs for a service

will progress slowly with build as planned i think and add springs and transfer gears to my research list. had hoped to get away without spring lift (cost and raised CG). will most likely stick with my 235/75R15's till they wear out as they're pretty much brand new, so will have to make a decision whether 4.9 gears are going to be unbearable on 235/75R15s.

current springs are stock but they do at least have some curve in them still ... have seen some collapsed so far they were pretty much flat. it does tow my 350kg sailing dinghy on sand and road pretty well. again, will wait till trailer build is done, take photos and measurements, load up, take photos and measurements again and see how she's coping.

thankz moph

With trailtough 4.9's and your 29's, I get 3400 rpm @ 100km/h - far from unbearable I would have thought.

Steve.

thx steve ... yeah, 3400rpm @ 100kph sounds okay. i don't have a bling exhaust so i won't have any drone and will probably treat my reconned engine a bit better than before so 100kph max will be fine.

any advice re trail toughs vs trail-gear? there's a coupla old posts requesting experience with trail-gear but no real responses as to whether they're a decent gearset. I ask only because it seems trail-gear are available from Locktup4x4 in Perth and look like they'll be a coupla hundred cheaper than trailtough from the states. Will happily pay premium for trailtough if they're a better gear set tho.

will do some more reading steve, but i think i'll head that way - put 4.9's in now to help with towing the trailer and low range ... slightly low with 29's but great crawl ratios to build rockcrawling experience ... then put on 31's in a coupla years time when the MTRs are getting low. That way I'll build experience on the 29's which means lower likelihood of breaking CV's, axles etc, then whack on the bigger tyres later.

Can't comment on Trail-Gear. My gears are Trail Tough and I'm very happy with them, but the freight is exxy.

Steve.

from the locktup website:

All products sold by Offroad Gear Pty. Ltd. are sold for off road use only. Any other use or application is the responsibility of the purchaser and/or user.

i understand its a generic disclaimer, but if its not engineered here in australia then you're not insured if you're running it... something to be aware of.