Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hi all,
been planning my next project for a while now and i thought i had all the bits and pieces for the job. this will be used as a dd to taxi the wife and kiddy around most of the year but i want it plenty capable enough to do some long distance touring and occasional weekend worriering.
brief run down goes.
95 suzuki sierra dual cab
rear wt diff pushed back 900mm from swb
4 link rear, arb air locker
full ruff front
spoa wt in the front
s3 hopper gears
3,9 or 4,11 dff ratio
33x10.50 bfg muds
jimny bb head and injection on a 16v vit bottom end, intercooled turbo
standard sierra gearbox.
now this is how i was going to build it but after reading through some diff threads i am thinking again. being that it will be over wb i am chasing some height to regain some rampover which i was why i was going spoa and the 33. standard f100 8inc rims will supply the only bit of extra track to try and help out the height issue. i want this to ride like a limmo onroad so the wt sierra diffs were to be retained to keep the unsprung weight down and i am hoping the whole thing will not tip over the heavy side of1300 kg on the scales. i also wnat this to be as "factory' looking as possible so the standard wt flares will stay and the tub will be a stantard soft top tub so gaurd chopping will not be an option.
question is, am i going about the suspension/ drive train setup right or would another diff of a different variety be more appropriet to get a bit more width and more strength. also have any of you spua fans got any ideas on fitting a 33x10.50 under that does not require gaurd choppingor tyre scrubbing.
all advice appreciated,
jase

u could guard chop and refix the orig flares on after upwards.

Vit rear? with coils and spacers or rims on the front WT?

does anyone know exactly how much wider the vit rear diff is over the wt? maybe a coily front would be close?? although i would have gearing issues if i was to retain the 5.12 behind the s3. i am aiming for around 3500 rpm @ 100 km. on 33's

Vit rear is wider. It's wider than a lux diff I think.

mr green wrote:........ also have any of you spua fans got any ideas on fitting a 33x10.50 under that does not require gaurd choppingor tyre scrubbing.
all advice appreciated,
jase

I have 33x10.5's on mine. ....(SUA)
To get them to fit I needed :
2" bodylift....
2" raised springs....
2" bumpstop extensions....
NT front spring spacing....
You will have to be careful with the rim offset you choose.

u can get 4.6 in the vit also which is close to what u want. also stronger than the WT or NT stuff.

beleive a few people use the lux front and vit rear in the SAS vitaras but not sure if u can get a 4.6 for lux, may only be 5.12s

nicbeer wrote:u can get 4.6 in the vit also which is close to what u want. also stronger than the WT or NT stuff.

beleive a few people use the lux front and vit rear in the SAS vitaras but not sure if u can get a 4.6 for lux, may only be 5.12s

I'll write some more about Mr Green's ideas later but you can't get either a 4.6 or 5.12 for hilux.

Hilux run 4.3, 4.55, 4.88, 5.29 There are 5.7's too, and I;m sure there are 4.1 and taller as well, but none of these are relevant.

I;m sure running a 4.55 front and 4.6 rear wouldn't be the end of the world, and there are some 4.3 and 4.88 vitara ratios too, but that's hte info I have regards 4.6 and 5.12 in hilux.

Steve.

I'm soon to fit 33's on my sierra with 5 inch calmini kit (with one leaf removed from front) and it looks like all I'll need is to hit the outer corners of the firewall/gaurd with a hammer to stop rubbing on the body. Yet to see if they rub on springs with WT spacing and -15 offset rims though.

it will look like a little jk unlimited

tjm_tj wrote:it will look like a little jk unlimited

God I hope not

Back to your question -

No, I can't think of how to run a 33 SPUA without guard chopping. Considering all the other work you're planning though, I would have thought a guard chop would have been a no brainer- just move the stock WT guards up.

You're looking at 115" of wheelbase by my calcs. I think this is going to end up super heavy - personally, I think it will be weak in the drivetrain. 1300KG is equal to a sierra at GVM - that's before you put any load in it.

Every bracket, component, spring, axlehousing etc will be well WELL beyond design parameters, based on tyre size, weight, power, torque, gearing. With any one of the mods ( power, gearing, tyres) you are planing suzuki stuff can be marginal, but with all three and 1/2 tonne over GVM, I just don't think it will last or be worth the effort.

sorry if this sounds negative - I know you are a talented fabricator and have a capability to build it, I just don't think it's a good idea- just buy a hilux that will do the same job effortlessly.

PS, how did you plan to get it legal? if you cat the chassis I believe you will have to meet 2008 ADR's, and it's not like this will fly under the radar... Have you looked at ICV?

Steve.

had a reputable engineer round for a few hours to go through the whole thing. he has given me the green light on everything i have planned. even as a 6 seater!! after having a bit more of a think about it i am thinking that 1300 kg is a lot more than i expect it will be, considering that the only weight i'll be adding to a tin top is the tub ( which i doubt would way more than 40 kg) , bout 3 metres of 100x50 rhs and an extra rear seat. (not that it would spend much time fitted).
i get what your saying about the gross weight being too close to the gvm but i'll just have to ignore that minor detail for now.
my main reason for the question was that the engineer has requested a brake upgrade to match the 1.6 turbo motor and i am still wondering about strength. so i was thinking that after reading the thread on diff swaps that maybe a set of lux diffs(or other) would kill 2 birds with the one stone. only problem is, i already own the wt, air locker andwheels. so to go out and buy another set of diffs, air locker and wheels i could easily pay for some double toughs and have change in the pocket.
and about the guard chop, its not that i don't think i can do it, i just want it to look mas factory as possible. after its finished it will be getting a coat of subaru metallic white to make it not catch the eye like a leary colour.
thanks for the feed back
jason

oh and the chassis will not be cut in the middle, it will have an extension on the rear
jason
just another thought on the weight issue. there are plenty of trays out there that would be heavier than my dual cab addition, but now i'm just getting petty. we will just have to waight and see how it turns out.
jason

how are you going to go about adding the 2 extra doors. All the dodgy ones done in the US using the stock doors reversed look stupid. I can't think of any doors that will look right except maybe some Defender doors but that is a guess.

don't want to give too much away about the cab setup yet, just incase i rooster it up . but the rear door will be a shortend front door with the widow and window frame from the rear of a gq. the quarter window will also have to be shortened.
jason

Hilux run 4.3, 4.55, 4.88, 5.29 There are 5.7's too, and I;m sure there are 4.1 and taller as well, but none of these are relevant.

I;m sure running a 4.55 front and 4.6 rear wouldn't be the end of the world, and there are some 4.3 and 4.88 vitara ratios too

yes i'm on about diffs again, couple of questions
1. is the rear 4.3 pumpkin interchangable with the 5.12( gv vs vit)?
2. what hiluxs came out with 4.1s
3 what is the reason 40 series diffs arn't used in zuks, the rear is offset, the ratio's would suit me and the steering is similar layout to a zook?

mr green wrote:
1. is the rear 4.3 pumpkin interchangable with the 5.12( gv vs vit)?

Yes

mr green wrote:3 what is the reason 40 series diffs arn't used in zuks, the rear is offset, the ratio's would suit me and the steering is similar layout to a zook?

They have been used plenty in the states. The main reason they arent as popular as the lux diffs is the physical size of the pumpkin. They are a fair bit larger than luxxies. Full floating axles rock IMO though.
60 series diffs on the other hand are sweet.

mr green wrote:

Hilux run 4.3, 4.55, 4.88, 5.29 There are 5.7's too, and I;m sure there are 4.1 and taller as well, but none of these are relevant.

I;m sure running a 4.55 front and 4.6 rear wouldn't be the end of the world, and there are some 4.3 and 4.88 vitara ratios too

yes i'm on about diffs again, couple of questions
1. is the rear 4.3 pumpkin interchangable with the 5.12( gv vs vit)?
2. what hiluxs came out with 4.1s
3 what is the reason 40 series diffs arn't used in zuks, the rear is offset, the ratio's would suit me and the steering is similar layout to a zook?

My Hilux diesel (96 has 4.1's). I'd be looking for 4.55 are going to be a better option.

If you're running a wide track you could just run stock MQ front with factory 4.6 and then a Navara rear (Smaller pumpkin) or the MQ matching rear.

60 series diffs will have 4.11 ratio.

Did someone mention the addition of weight? The sierra GVM is low.

Hilux diffs + tyres + the cabin + the allowance for rear passengers are you absoluetly sure you can do it within GVM?

Depending on your state regulations you might be able to build a Sierra Dual cab on a Hilux chassis and driveline. Lost of work to end up with a small cramped dual cab but would be fun, none the less.

Or, build a Vitara dual cab with live axle front?

Trying to keep your RPM at 3500 for 100kmh, is that why you want to change both diff ratios, is it possible to fit a sj410 transfer case to lower the ratios instead.
Or consider putting in a larger motor that works at a lower RPM ,Here in the west it is theoretically possible to put an alumnium 3500 rover v8 in, based on DPI form LA2, 880kgx 4=3520cc, unless im reading the form wrong.
anyway just some ideas to play around with, you have probably got your own completely different ideas

i fitted 33.7" simex tyres Spung under with 2" body lift, 2"springs, 2"shackles and moving the diff forward 20mm by redrilling the holes the sping lines up with. No clearance issues just breakage issues

wildmouse wrote:Trying to keep your RPM at 3500 for 100kmh,...

the reason i was thinking diff swap was for get homeability. i'm thinking of doing a central australia trip( yes in a car thats not built yet) so if i brake a front cv or axle i wont care too much but if i snap a rear im in trouble. i have my gearing how i think i want it, with s3 transfer and 4.1 (or4.11 cant remember now, maruti wt diff gears) so if i swap diffs now it is for stregnth not ratios. i have decided for now to get it together with the suzi gear to start with so when it comes time for the weigh bridge ticket it will be as light as possable so i can get the 6 seatss approved and ill worry about diffs later. don't know how pricey they would be but i'm taking a real shine to the idea of 4.3 vit diffs. front in the front and shortened (drivers side) rear for the rear. Or the other idea would be hilux rear(shortened drivers side) with 4.1 gears and some double toughs for the front.
jason

I had a sj413 a while back with a 4g63b mitsibishi conversion .It had 10x15 tyres, lift kit , barwork, different seats and interior wood work,2x 40ltr longrange tanks built into the sills ,and on the weighbridge was 1100kg. your extra body work say 100kg. 1200kg all up.
As for diff strength I never had any problems 4 years of club 4x4 work, 16 competition events and a 5000km trip up north, so u shouldnt have a problem with standard diffs, maybe upgrade axle bearings etc.....
but it all depends on can u get the vit diffs cheap, and fit them easy!

wildmouse wrote:I had a sj413 a while back with a 4g63b mitsibishi conversion .It had 10x15 tyres, lift kit , barwork, different seats and interior wood work,2x 40ltr longrange tanks built into the sills ,and on the weighbridge was 1100kg. your extra body work say 100kg. 1200kg all up.

and that's the problem.... 1200kg + driver and passenger and you're already over GVM... and Mr Green is chasing 6 seats. At an average 50kg per person that's still 350kg... payload is only 450kg.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:.. and Mr Green is chasing 6 seats. At an average 50kg per person that's still 350kg... payload is only 450kg.

Steve.

mmm perfect oh and i'm only after 6 seats not 7

yes yes realised that when I came back to the computer and sat down.

I'm still sticking to the weight of the car being a big problem. Every mod suggested is going to add more weight, I think you're going to be stuck in a cycle of adding strength to deal with the payload, which adds weight, so you have to add strength... which adds weight...

I think you (slightly) missed my point though Jason. you can "ignore that minor detail" but I think it will be what sinks the project.

My LWB sierra is rated for 1390kg of GVM.

50kg of fuel and 4X75kg adults and you're at 350Kg of payload, with only 100kg for mods.

Doors, seats, all that steel.... You'll be at GVM with even a light load. Every system in the car is only rated for GVM, that's why heavily laden sierras flog out. Every time you try and build around the problem, you'll be making the car heavier, and everyone knows if you have the space you'll fill it.

Did you specifically discuss the increase in dry weight with the engineer? I can see a number of areas where you're heading towards ICV territory - wheelbase stretch and increase in weight would be the biggies. As I understand it, a wheelbase stretch has very serious ADR implications, as does an increase in dry weight of more than 30% of the car's payload. If you add more than 125kg, you'll be in trouble.

It sounds like you need a dual cab hilux.

No reflection on your ability to build stuff, I know full well you can, but as Grimbo says VVVVVVV

thanks for the idea of the dual cab hilux, a never thought of going that way. i get what your saying about the weight but are you worried about it from a legal or practical perspective.(i don't know of anyone being pulled over in a passenger vehicle to be weighed) i don't see myself using it as a people mover on a regular bases but i would like the option. when weigh bridge time comes it will be as light as possible(no fuel, no spare tyre. no bull bar no winch) none of this stuff has to be engineered so it won't be weighed either. i realy dont know how much it will weigh yet but i would be surprised if it is going to be any heavier than a lwb with tyres, exo, steel tray, bullbar and winch.
and the wheel base is looking at around 108 in. we'll just weight and see.
jason

just looking at the engineering certificate for mine and the GVM has been uprated to 1600 kgs (original w/t rear housing with modifications in front and Vitara housing in rear).

WRX Zook - I'm sure it's possible to increase the GVM via a cert, but it is a complex process for the engineer.

Jason, I'm concerned about both- Sierra stuff can be broken easily enough without going beyond GVM, even if an engineer can sign it off.

Steve.

I had to remove my back seat for the GVM , the engineer raised it 150 kg and don't know about other states , but the RTA never read my Report when I registered my truck. If you can avoid a large increase in GVM you shouldn't have a problem. Your engineer should be able to advise you , but if you up the GVM you must upgrade your braking system , upgrade suspension components , obviously a small increase won't matter , but a large increase will. One other thing is your engine size , If you say make your vehicle 500 kg heavier , your power to weight ratio comes into play , so you might need an engine upgrade , Cheers Paul.