Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I have to wire up a L76 V8 from the current model commodore soon, My question is can I use a LS1 harness and ECU to run it.
The drive by wire is being replaced with normal throttle body. I beleive the injector plugs are different, but i will change them if need be.

Or am i better off using a L76 ECU and harness, and disable the drive by wire fault codes so it runs with the normal throttle body.

2nd option is less favorable because the customer already has an LS1 manual Harness.

Can any of you Holden guru's help me out.
thanks
steve

bit of a guess but can you run the LS1 manifold and injection on that engine ?

If you can, use the LS1 harness etc

try ls1.com.au

Can't use LS1 computer must use E30 due to different crank/cam reluctor setup. Can't (to my knowledge) use a cable with the E38 ecu, may be possible but would depend if there is a model using that ecu and operating system that has a cable to use as a tune start point, would require modified operating system and retuning if possible. Can use LS1 ecu if change reluctor on crank and cam gear. Will also need to change injector plugs on loom.
I use EFI Live and regularly check Holden Crazy which is the tune file repository and have not seen a cable tune for the E38, there maybe a US model, sometimes the trucks ran cables later than the cars, perhaps an LQ9 operating system if one exists less fly by wire and retuned to suit.

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:Can't use LS1 computer must use E30 due to different crank/cam reluctor setup. Can't (to my knowledge) use a cable with the E38 ecu, may be possible but would depend if there is a model using that ecu and operating system that has a cable to use as a tune start point, would require modified operating system and retuning if possible. Can use LS1 ecu if change reluctor on crank and cam gear. Will also need to change injector plugs on loom.
I use EFI Live and regularly check Holden Crazy which is the tune file repository and have not seen a cable tune for the E38, there maybe a US model, sometimes the trucks ran cables later than the cars, perhaps an LQ9 operating system if one exists less fly by wire and retuned to suit.

Joel

thanks joel, i was worried that the reluctors would be different, i guess we will have to go with drive by wire than.
Or full aftermarket is a possible option i spose?

killalux wrote: thanks joel, i was worried that the reluctors would be different, i guess we will have to go with drive by wire than.
Or full aftermarket is a possible option i spose?

Holden quoted me $90 for the drive by wire pedal setup
Hoppy

yeah the prob i see is this is a comp truck, which will go under water.
He has decided on full aftermarket system

We had issues with a flat track race car that the throttle would shut down when the car hit the ripple strips, you had to turn off the engine and re-start it to get throttle control. It is a safety feature, the throttle has 2 TPS's that must be in agreement alll the time, a large enough shock can cause a fault to log and throttle shut down.
At the time it couldn't be disabled, that may have been rectified now as this was 6 months ago.

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:We had issues with a flat track race car that the throttle would shut down when the car hit the ripple strips, you had to turn off the engine and re-start it to get throttle control. It is a safety feature, the throttle has 2 TPS's that must be in agreement alll the time, a large enough shock can cause a fault to log and throttle shut down.
At the time it couldn't be disabled, that may have been rectified now as this was 6 months ago.

Joel

yeah we get that on older BMW's and audi's at work, one TPS is only slightly different due to wear, and the throttle shuts down.

What is the difference between the 6lt LS2 and an L76

Hoppy

variable cam timing. the looms are different, knock sensors in a different place, injectors different plugs, l76 has fly by wire pedal too.

a mate just bought a crate motor and this is what we noticed

regards

Justin

cheers, would the LS2 be better than the L76??
Hoppy

Some finer details, the L76 does not have variable cam timing it has active fuel management, the ability to hold the valves open on 4 cylinders and cut spark and fuel, these engines can cruise and operate on light throttle on 4 cylinders for economy.
The current engine in the Commodore is an L98 that is fundamentally the same as the L76 but without the Active fuel management, they share the same heads, camshaft and compression ratio. The LS2 is an older engine and retains higher compression and a slightly larger camshaft and makes a little more power 10hp or so from memory.
They arent exact figures but the L98 and L76 are about 9.5 to 1 compared with the LS2 that is closer to 10.5 to 1, I assume this is for piston to valve clearance when operating in Active fuel management but haven't torn the full engine down to confirm this.
A new LS2 is about 9k and an L76 4k. The late LS2 (about 2005 on)shares the same crank/cam sensor configuration as the L76 and the ECU from the LS1 will not run as it has different number of teeth on the flywheel and cam gear, it will also be fly by wire like the L76. You will need an E38 or E40 ECU or change the reluctor pickup on the crank and cam gear.
Both the LS2 and L76 have external knock sensors, the LS1 has them in the valley under the intake manifold. Extended looms are easily obtained.

Cheers

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:Some finer details, the L76 does not have variable cam timing it has active fuel management, the ability to hold the valves open on 4 cylinders and cut spark and fuel, these engines can cruise and operate on light throttle on 4 cylinders for economy.
The current engine in the Commodore is an L98 that is fundamentally the same as the L76 but without the Active fuel management, they share the same heads, camshaft and compression ratio. The LS2 is an older engine and retains higher compression and a slightly larger camshaft and makes a little more power 10hp or so from memory.
They arent exact figures but the L98 and L76 are about 9.5 to 1 compared with the LS2 that is closer to 10.5 to 1, I assume this is for piston to valve clearance when operating in Active fuel management but haven't torn the full engine down to confirm this.
A new LS2 is about 9k and an L76 4k. The late LS2 (about 2005 on)shares the same crank/cam sensor configuration as the L76 and the ECU from the LS1 will not run as it has different number of teeth on the flywheel and cam gear, it will also be fly by wire like the L76. You will need an E38 or E40 ECU or change the reluctor pickup on the crank and cam gear.
Both the LS2 and L76 have external knock sensors, the LS1 has them in the valley under the intake manifold. Extended looms are easily obtained.

Cheers

Joel

PGS you sure that the L76 holds the valves open... my understanding is the valves stay closed by lifter disabling... I'm no expert tho..

PGS 4WD wrote: The LS2 is an older engine and retains higher compression and a slightly larger camshaft and makes a little more power 10hp or so from memory.
A new LS2 is about 9k and an L76 4k.

Why such a big difference in price Is the LS2 that much better, I know that HSV used them instead of the L76
Hoppy

Holden dropped the price heaps. Maybe they bought a heap expecting to keep the engine for several models, but emissions choices forced a change to the L98. Crate L76 motors are now very reasonably priced.

RED60 wrote:

PGS 4WD wrote:Some finer details, the L76 does not have variable cam timing it has active fuel management, the ability to hold the valves open on 4 cylinders and cut spark and fuel, these engines can cruise and operate on light throttle on 4 cylinders for economy.
The current engine in the Commodore is an L98 that is fundamentally the same as the L76 but without the Active fuel management, they share the same heads, camshaft and compression ratio. The LS2 is an older engine and retains higher compression and a slightly larger camshaft and makes a little more power 10hp or so from memory.
They arent exact figures but the L98 and L76 are about 9.5 to 1 compared with the LS2 that is closer to 10.5 to 1, I assume this is for piston to valve clearance when operating in Active fuel management but haven't torn the full engine down to confirm this.
A new LS2 is about 9k and an L76 4k. The late LS2 (about 2005 on)shares the same crank/cam sensor configuration as the L76 and the ECU from the LS1 will not run as it has different number of teeth on the flywheel and cam gear, it will also be fly by wire like the L76. You will need an E38 or E40 ECU or change the reluctor pickup on the crank and cam gear.
Both the LS2 and L76 have external knock sensors, the LS1 has them in the valley under the intake manifold. Extended looms are easily obtained.

Cheers

Joel

PGS you sure that the L76 holds the valves open... my understanding is the valves stay closed by lifter disabling... I'm no expert tho..

The L76 had the basic hardware for DOD extra oil galleries lifters etc. But it was not operational as the motor also requires a Cam phaser to vary timing etc, which was not fitted to the Holden models due to a lack of space.

also i think you will find the the comp ratio on l76 is 10.4.1 and is a much better engine than ls2 if you want to lightly mod it with a cam and tune.
Gen 4 L76 6.0L engine – key data

Location Front Longitudinal
Type 90 Deg. OHV V8
Capacity (cm3) 5967
Bore x Stroke (mm) 101.6 x 92.0
Compression Ratio 10.4:1
Cylinders 8
Firing Order 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3
Cylinder Block Cast Aluminium with cast in place Iron bore liners
Bore Spacing C/L to C/L (mm) 111.76
Crankshaft Cast nodular Iron
Pistons Cast Aluminium Alloy
Connecting Rod Forged Powdered Metal
Cylinder Head Cast Aluminium
Valvetrain Single in block camshaft; hydraulic roller lifters; push rods; roller rockers; two over head valves per cylinder

zackde wrote:

RED60 wrote:

PGS 4WD wrote:Some finer details, the L76 does not have variable cam timing it has active fuel management, the ability to hold the valves open on 4 cylinders and cut spark and fuel, these engines can cruise and operate on light throttle on 4 cylinders for economy.
The current engine in the Commodore is an L98 that is fundamentally the same as the L76 but without the Active fuel management, they share the same heads, camshaft and compression ratio. The LS2 is an older engine and retains higher compression and a slightly larger camshaft and makes a little more power 10hp or so from memory.
They arent exact figures but the L98 and L76 are about 9.5 to 1 compared with the LS2 that is closer to 10.5 to 1, I assume this is for piston to valve clearance when operating in Active fuel management but haven't torn the full engine down to confirm this.
A new LS2 is about 9k and an L76 4k. The late LS2 (about 2005 on)shares the same crank/cam sensor configuration as the L76 and the ECU from the LS1 will not run as it has different number of teeth on the flywheel and cam gear, it will also be fly by wire like the L76. You will need an E38 or E40 ECU or change the reluctor pickup on the crank and cam gear.
Both the LS2 and L76 have external knock sensors, the LS1 has them in the valley under the intake manifold. Extended looms are easily obtained.

Cheers

Joel

PGS you sure that the L76 holds the valves open... my understanding is the valves stay closed by lifter disabling... I'm no expert tho..

The L76 had the basic hardware for DOD extra oil galleries lifters etc. But it was not operational as the motor also requires a Cam phaser to vary timing etc, which was not fitted to the Holden models due to a lack of space.

Havent pulled the whole thing down but it makes more sense to hold the valve open as that reduces pumping losses, keeping them closed would tend to create a lot of drag on the motor internally.

They are obviously still going through various stages of production, I've done a few camshafts on these and have found some to have oil journals in the camshaft for the variable valve timing, but none with all the parts.
Much of this is still coming. I know Holden have been working with the Active fuel management and are getting some impressive economy figures on the open road.
The cam phaser I believe is on the LQ9.
The L76 has destinctive lifters on 4 cylinders, intake and exhaust. That appear to have three claws that grab the lifter. I'll have one apart in the next three months for a stroker kit so it will be interesting to see.
From a software point of view the E38 has the tables for active fuel and is a full floating point ecu that generates its own volumetric efficiency charts based on camshaft angle, very complex maths involved.

All fun and games

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote: Havent pulled the whole thing down but it makes more sense to hold the valve open as that reduces pumping losses, keeping them closed would tend to create a lot of drag on the motor internally.

They are obviously still going through various stages of production, I've done a few camshafts on these and have found some to have oil journals in the camshaft for the variable valve timing, but none with all the parts.
Much of this is still coming. I know Holden have been working with the Active fuel management and are getting some impressive economy figures on the open road.
The cam phaser I believe is on the LQ9.
The L76 has destinctive lifters on 4 cylinders, intake and exhaust. That appear to have three claws that grab the lifter. I'll have one apart in the next three months for a stroker kit so it will be interesting to see.
From a software point of view the E38 has the tables for active fuel and is a full floating point ecu that generates its own volumetric efficiency charts based on camshaft angle, very complex maths involved.

All fun and games

Joel

Any news yet??, can the current crate L76 be made to run on 4 cylinders for economy???

Hoppy

Found this on a US site, does the L76 aready have active fuel management. A long read coming up
hoppy

Full Description of New And Updated Features

Active Fuel Management Calibrated For Pontiac G8 GT Passenger Car
The aluminum-block Gen IV 6.0L (L76) features GM’s Active Fuel Management technology (AFM). AFM temporarily de-activates four of the 6.0L’s cylinders under light to moderate load conditions. It should increase fuel economy approximately 6 percent under the federal government’s required testing procedure and potentially more in certain real-world driving conditions. Yet V8-powered rear-drive performance vehicles don’t have to compromise on the outstanding peak horsepower of the 6.0L (L76) to go farther on a tank of gas.

Active Fuel Management stems from a simple premise: most V8 cars have more power than owners demand in all conditions. With AFM, owners have a choice to save fuel during routine commuting. The 6.0L (L76) saves fuel by using only half of the 6.0L’s cylinders during some driving conditions, and seamlessly reactivates the other cylinders when a driver demands full power for acceleration.

Managed by the sophisticated E38 engine control module (ECM), AFM automatically shuts down every second cylinder, according to firing order, during light-load operation. In engineering terms, this allows the working cylinders to achieve better thermal, volumetric and mechanical efficiency by reducing heat loss, combustion loss and friction, and lowering cyclical combustion variation from cylinder to cylinder. As a result, AFM delivers better fuel economy and lower operating costs. Perhaps the most sensible thing about AFM is that it harnesses the engine’s existing capabilities, starting with the potential designed into the E38 ECM. The only mechanical components required are special valve lifters for cylinders that are deactivated, and their control system. The incremental cost for the customer is nominal per engine. Active Fuel Management relies on three primary components: De-ac (for deactivation) or collapsible valve lifters, a Lifter Oil Manifold Assembly (LOMA), and the ECM.

One of the most sophisticated engine controllers extant, the E38 ECM measures load conditions based on inputs from vehicle sensors and interprets that information to mange more than 100 engine operations, from fuel injection to spark control to electronic throttle control. AFM adds an algorithm to the engine control software to manage cylinder deactivation and reactivation. When loads are light, the E38 automatically closes both intake and exhaust valves for half of the cylinders and cuts fuel delivery to those four. The valves re-open to activate all cylinders when the driver demands brisk acceleration or full torque to move a load. The engine’s electronic throttle control (ETC) is used to balance torque following cylinder deactivation or reactivation. The transition takes less than 20 milliseconds, and can’t be detected by the driver.

Valve lifters are operated by the engine’s camshaft, and lift a pushrod that operates the valves in the cylinder head. In the Gen IV 6.0L (L76), the De-Ac lifters are installed in cylinders 1, 4, 6 and 7, while the remaining cylinders use conventional lifters. The hydraulically operated De-Ac lifters have a spring-loaded locking pin actuated by oil pressure. For deactivation, hydraulic pressure dislodges the locking pin, collapsing the top portion of the lifter into the bottom and removing contact with the pushrod. The bottom of each De-Ac lifter rides up and down on the cam lobe but the top does not move the push rod. The valves do not operate and combustion in that cylinder stops. During reactivation, the oil pressure is removed, and the lifter locks at full length. The pushrods, and therefore the valves, operate normally.

The final AFM component is the LOMA. This cast-aluminum assembly is installed in the valley of the 6.0L (L76) in place of a conventional engine block cover. The LOMA holds four solenoids, control wiring and cast-in oil passages. The solenoids are managed by the ECM, and each one controls oil flow to a De-Ac Lifter, activating and de-activating the valves at one cylinder as required for Active Fuel Management.

The fuel injectors in the Gen IV 6.0L (L76) are identical for all cylinders; those feeding the de-activated cylinders are simply shut down electrically by the ECM during de-activation. When the cylinders are deactivated, the engine effectively operates as a V4. AFM operation is load based, as measured by the ECM using dozens of inputs, overlain with the driver’s demand for power as measured by throttle application. AFM’s response time varies with oil temperature, but in all cases is measured in milliseconds. Operation is always transparent to the driver. The engine returns to V8 mode the instant the controller determines that acceleration or load requires additional power.

The benefits are substantial. Active Fuel Management does not effect exhaust emissions, and it will reduce overall emissions significantly, including greenhouse gases such as CO2, to the extent that less fuel is used. Further, the savings reflected in EPA numbers may not account for AFM’s full impact. Owners who primarily travel long distances at steady speeds will see substantially greater fuel-economy improvements. Because of the reduced mass of the Pontiac G8 GT compared to the full-size trucks which use the majority of the Gen IV V8 engines, the calibrations for switching from a V4 powered configuration to a V8 configuration have been modified to optimize efficiency.

Have one coming back next week hopefully to play with DOD, have made up the loom to plug in. It's correct the G8 (made here) use the DOD. I can tell you all the E38 callibrations I have seen have DOD , L76, L98, LQ9 and so on, its just not active, which is easy to rectify.
The cam Phaser is separate to the DOD.
It's a bit crap that the valves are kept closed and not open a bit but the high compression probably dosent allow the piston to valve clearance, it would be more efficient I would have thought to reduce pumping losses by having the valves open.
I have read similar literature and it is available on a number of forums in the States LS1 tech, EFI Live, Hp tuners and so on.
It'll be interesting to see how the operation of this effects engine life maybe well be doing a reco on 4 cylinders in 200k klms.

Cheers
Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:Have one coming back next week hopefully to play with DOD, have made up the loom to plug in. It's correct the G8 (made here) use the DOD. I can tell you all the E38 callibrations I have seen have DOD , L76, L98, LQ9 and so on, its just not active, which is easy to rectify.
The cam Phaser is separate to the DOD.
It's a bit crap that the valves are kept closed and not open a bit but the high compression probably dosent allow the piston to valve clearance, it would be more efficient I would have thought to reduce pumping losses by having the valves open.
I have read similar literature and it is available on a number of forums in the States LS1 tech, EFI Live, Hp tuners and so on.
It'll be interesting to see how the operation of this effects engine life maybe well be doing a reco on 4 cylinders in 200k klms.

Cheers
Joel

From what I've read, in deactivated cylinder mode, tho the 4 working cylinders have to turn over the deactivated ones, the air that is compressed actually imparts a high percentage of that energy back to the crank, so the losses are actually quite small...

One of the things that the manufactures are trying to acheive is less pumping loss, by making the engine less powerful at cruise (by removing 4 cylinders) the throttle is open more and the amount of vacuum, or pumping loss, is reduced, just as retarding a camshaft at cruise or running at Lambda one at cruise causes the engine to make less power and the ECU opens the fly by wire throttle which reduces engine vacuum. Perhaps the added compressive load is beneficial enough in that the throttle opening is greater at cruise returning improved economy due to lower manifold vacuum and pumping loss.
All intersesting stuff

Joel