Outer Limits 4x4 Board

onto the next project have a stockman ute with a 1ltr widetrack 4.1 diffs and 4 speed. The choice is between these two engines, i did toy with the idea of a rotary but i need reliability.
I have come to realise that some fab work is required to fit even a stock carby 1.3, so why not put something better in.
the car will be used for mainly dune work and 31" tyres (MAX) only
I would like to keep it all suzuki but some rave about the 4age motor, my only question is in regards to the gearbox used with this motor, do you use the w58 supra box or an adapter plate to 1.3 5 speed?
i have searched but would still like some opinions and have decided to build this car with a bit more poke for sand dunes rather than dying 3/4 the way up, and after the w/end have come to the conclusion that the 1ltr is g_a_y for what i want, but i needed the car to be a ute for work.
cheers

yeh 1litres r gay the 1.3s arent much better in the dunes mine would cut out if it was to bumpy because the carbies suck

I'd like to say the 4age because I've heard goos things, and it should be better, but I haven't actually experienced one myself. BUT if you plan to keep it a while it would probably pay to get the GTi and turbo it down the track if you want (which can be done very easily do to aftermarket support for these motors).

A light turbo on a 1.6 EFI
Or a J20A

4Age's are all pretty old now, they're heavy and the gearbox selection is a PITA. (Bazooka did an excellent thread on this last year, might be in the bible?)

If you can get enough power into it, autos rule in the sand - no loss of momentum on changes - and as you are running a 1.0 ute, you have room for a AW4 once you open up the tunnel and move the transfer back.

I think a J20A/auto would be cool. J20A's are fairly cheap, but not the easiest to fit - TT do a kit though. they do about 97kw stock but plenty of torque.

Steve.

, geez mick ur never satisfied.

u want the revs in sand so a turbo gti engine may be good for it.

plenty of parts available for them also.

my normal response = sr20det hell yeah

but you want to keep it near stock, either motor is cool, but the gti may be the easier conversion, you still have to change you engine mounts like you said, but you can use a 1.3l gearbox which are cheap and everywhere. I've got three and have only just brought a suzuki again.

gti motors are also getting old, but have lots of support and like GRPABT1 said you can turbo it with an aftermarket kit.

no gearbox tunnel mods either.

on the other hand. a 4agze sounds very angry esp when you are on dunes near redline!

enjoy ashley

you dont have to change engine mounts wih gti engine, just has to do right angle dizzy or mod firewall.


edit: ahh bugger forgot it was 1L, with any motor he is going to have to change engine mounts.

I agree with the comment about considering an auto for sand work as it is one area where they really do shine but make sure they have good oil and a decent trans cooler.

Just to give some engine output figures.

GTi 1.3
74kW@6700rpm & 108Nm@5500rpm

J20A
Vit 97kW@6000rpm & 166Nm@3000rpm
GV 94kW@6000rpm & 174Nm@2900rpm

I'm on the record as not being a fan of the J20 as a sierra conversion but that's normally where people see it as a small step beyond a 1.6 in a sierra, which it's not.

As you are considering a 4Age, with the weight and gearbox issues they bring, and you're talking into a 1,0, so all mounts have to changed anyway, I would consider a J20.

I wouldn't advocate a turbo on a GTI motor for the same reason you won't go near a rotary- in the sand and pulling 31's, a GTI is going to be deep into boost all the time. unless youre going to be happy with a quite low output turbo, you'll have heat/reliability problems. My guess is a "reliable" turbo GTI would have about the same output as a J20, with lots more money in the turbo engine.

Personally, the newest engine that does the job you need in stock form would have to be the best outcome for reliability and cost in the long term.

Steve.

Go the toyota 3RZ out of a late hilux.
might be abit heavy but their a tuff motor with good after market support and lots of grunt.

3Rz's are grouse - amazing torque and super reliable, but they are tall and heavy.

I know it LOOKS like one will fit, but has anyone actually done it in a RHD car?

Steve.

I never thought of the J20A due to it never being mentioned. But now that it has the stats make it obvious, the higher torque and lower torque band means you'll be doing less work to get the same result. The old KISS principle shines here as a standard J20A would be far more reliable.

Spike_Sierra wrote:you dont have to change engine mounts wih gti engine, just has to do right angle dizzy or mod firewall.

are you sure, hes putting it into a 1.0 L which have different mounts to a 1.3L g13b
a gti has the same block pattern as a 1.3L g13b and would require same mods.

I have a lwb 1L with 1.3L and the 1.3L isnt a straight swap, as per the BIBLE

i have checked the bible and these were the two engines i thought were best suited to reliably pulling high revs in the sand. i like the power of the vitara engines but after owning one i thought they just didnt like to rev as freely as the gti or toyota motor.
The most difficult thing with the gti motor seems to be figuring out what to do with the dizzy. I know people put them up the front of the motor but im not bad with the welder so its probably easier for me to mod the firewall my only concern is the legality of this in perth.Our mod laws suck.
does anyone have any pics of mods to the firewall to accept 1.3 dizzy?
and what gearbox to use behind the 4agze?

Yeah I'll go take some of mine, which was easily engineered in QLD so you should have no problem.

Here's the pics, I think it is just the bottom of an old oil tin or something welded in, a little booty fab but it works.

Mate, PM Drew on here. he is in Perth I beleive and is the 4ag(z)e guru. He helped me out heaps with mine.


Having rebuilt the 4age in my old zook, I really, really like this engine. Piss easy to work on and great power in the swb. The gearbox in mine was from a rwd corolla (sprinter) which was a fair bit longer than the zook box. this resulted in a very short jackshaft that was prone to going through unis. Something to be aware of.

My only complaint with it was that the power came on too high in the revs to be used easily on the rocks which is where I like to drive. Having said that, they will happily rev out all day and come back for more. Would be a weapon in the sand IMO.

GRPABT1 wrote:Here's the pics, I think it is just the bottom of an old oil tin or something welded in, a little booty fab but it works.

how's the blower fan?

Steve.

as regards to boxing in the distributor is the heater ,demister unit behind there,which needs to be functioning to be legal
secondly If it is mostly sand dunes you want to conquer then you need torque . I have had a rotary in a LJ 50 and while great on the road it would die on a steep sand hill. my best conversion for sand was a 4g63 mitsubishi motor using the gearbox out of the L300 van and a all aussie holden 4spd shifter modified to shift 5 gears. this combo was so short that the jackshaft stayed the same length.
and dont forget these motors are now turboed producing heaps of torque.
I done this conversion in the late eighties so cant remember the details but mine had a weber carbyand was non turbo. the body panels were not modified, I used a holden six radiator .
the car was a 1ltr sierra swb, .......but remember a lot of engines will fit just go around a wreckers yard with a tape measure,and check their legality if you intend to police pass it. PS autos are good if they will fit in the tunnel but make sure its a good box as soom wont change down quick enough for hill climbing.
hopefully this si of use to you, I better get back to putting this 16b swift motor into my current sierra.[/i]

v840 wrote:Mate, PM Drew on here. he is in Perth I beleive and is the 4ag(z)e guru. He helped me out heaps with mine.


Having rebuilt the 4age in my old zook, I really, really like this engine. Piss easy to work on and great power in the swb. The gearbox in mine was from a rwd corolla (sprinter) which was a fair bit longer than the zook box. this resulted in a very short jackshaft that was prone to going through unis. Something to be aware of.

My only complaint with it was that the power came on too high in the revs to be used easily on the rocks which is where I like to drive. Having said that, they will happily rev out all day and come back for more. Would be a weapon in the sand IMO.

he moved to qld a couple of years ago, unless he has moved back.

cheers for the pics, looks easy enough. I think with that said i can go and order myself a half cut from the importers, i was thinking $2000-$2500
for the gti twin cam, does this sound about right.
really the dizzy thing was the only thing stopping me from doing it to start with but the grinder and mig should fix that prob. At least that way i can use the sierra 5 spd.
cheers

OK but wildmouse speaks the truth. Torque is what makes the car work in sand as sand is a high load surface.

IMHO GTi motors are overrated for the hassle of fitting them and their age. The head doesn't flow as well as a G16 MPFI head. They make barely any more torque than a stock sierra, and have an inappropriate powerband for a heavy car (for the motor - check kerb weight of a GTi)

I am aware that a mazda 323 GTX (?) or GTR dizzy cap will help the firewall clearance, there is a mythical $570 right angle drive for them, and I have seen some FWD G engines moved well forward in the engine bay to fit the dizzy, but your car will not be legal without a demister so retaining the blower fan is a requirement.

Pulling the motor forward is also hack for weight distribution.

I suggest you speak to an engineer.

Steve.

$2500 will get you a whole Jimny or Baleno as a wreck. The Baleno motor will murder a GTI below 5500 rpm.

the bolt on turbo gear readily available for the gti is what has me interested. If i get the baleno or other motors i know i will want more power. I have done the rok and mud thing for a while now and really would like an engine with the potential for 150rwkw i know this might be a bit of w.a.n.k in a suzuki but im sick of v8 cruisers and the like driving circles around me stuck 3/4 way up a big dune. I know with built internals the swift guys are getting 300kw out of these motors, allbiet with big laggy turbochargers so i figure 150kw is attainable. just want to do something different, here in perth everyone has a 1600 with some lift, tyres and think 60hp is the shiz in the zuks

I'm going to say no it's not attainable

150rwkw is around 195 crank kw, or 261 HP.

Lotus, many years ago (but with EFI, alloy blocks and VERY good intercooling) asserted that 140HP/L was the maximum acheivable for a road driven car.

Even the new GTR pulls 125HP/L, with far better engine management that we could ever afford.

You're asking for better than 200hp/l. It's going to be a hand grenade. You won't get within a bull's roar of it with stock internals or a "bolt on turbo kit"

Get ready for some broken motors and LOTS of dyno time.

If you said 125crank KW, or about 60%over stock (I think as advertised with the AVO GTI kits years ago) I'd say you have a chance, but you're going to be massively harder on the motor than a guy running around in a GTi- you'll need to look at the guys that circuit race them to get an idea of whats required.

I reckon there's $8K in getting the output you are chasing out of a GTi motor, at least, + the conversion cost into the sierra.

now go and prove me wrong make it happen!

Steve.

For my 2c the gti has very little torque down low
i have owned a 1litre sierra with a gti engine (they need to be geared right to work)ok on the street ,not great in the sand but turboed if you can keep it on song it should be fun.

I would suggest a gze (ge good gze better),in the long wheelbase you can move the transfer back 100mm(i think its been a while) & swap tailshafts front<>rear so you can use a longer jackshaft .
i only changed 1 set of jackshaft unis in 8 years short w/base, its all in the angles .
Weight is not an issue..
As for gearbox the jap ge box (t50) was good for many years till i got too greedy with power.
if your looking at a w/series box you may as well go for a hilux g52with transfer but its a LOT more work than a t50,
but better with the lux diffs you will fit after finding rocks to play on

still in QLD for now ,moving back to Perth is on the cards tho

I know where your coming from, Ive had pajero dids beat me on hill climbs. If I was really serious about sand hills and beating cruisers well see list
4g63t 150kw (evo motor)
4agze similar power
The dpi website can be helpful for alist of engineers, also while you are there get form vsb14 ( modification to light production vehicles) also see if you can speak to someone from the technical department . Would be interesting to Know max engine size for us perth people.

a new contender has come to light, the jimny injected 1.3. I have looked into the legality of modding the firewall of the stockman and the effort involved in satisfying the dpi inspectors to run the gti motor and dizzy and its not worth it.
are these jimny 1.3ltr motors really worth it? I have never seen this conversion in a sierra in perth. I have got all the info from the guys at suzistore to make it fit, It seems straightforward but will this motor have the balls?
Is there anyone here in perth who can take me for a spin if they have this conversion to help me make my choice
cheers

The G13BB is a good motor if you want an easy instal. The M13a from the later model jimny's is a PITA to install and wire, and not alot more power either.

i went the gti with a twist it was easier because the hardest thing for a 4age conversion is the gearbox, i used to drift a toyota sprinter and it was pretty hard finding a t50 gearbox


the distributor is of a toyota serra or a 4age