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Water/Air intercooler issues
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:09 pm
by rutpilot
I am about to turbo my TD42 and want to run a water to air intercooler. Are there any issues with putting the intercooler radiator infront of the A/C condenser? I am currently running a standard GQ radiator, but was thinking of changing to a ZD30 radiator as I'm told they have a much larger cooling capacity. I am also going to run a high mount winch eventually. Any ideas are appreciated
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:10 pm
by coxy321
Personally, i reckon you really need to keep the main heat exchanger away from any mud/damage. I'd try and get a bonnet scoop, mount it offset to either left/right of the bonnet up near the front (away from any heat sources). Make up a bracket for it, mount a small thermo fan 6-10inches, and Bob's your aunty. Make sure you get a decent water pump too. Good pumps cost big $$$.
Coxy
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:31 pm
by Dzltec
No there are no issues having it there, they are only 30cm x 30cm. I would stick with a good quality copper 3-4 core radiator to suit a gq. At least they fit easily.
Andy
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:27 pm
by coxy321
Dzltec wrote:No there are no issues having it there, they are only 30cm x 30cm. I would stick with a good quality copper 3-4 core radiator to suit a gq. At least they fit easily.
I'm a bit confused Andy. Could you elaborate on that??
Coxy
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:54 pm
by rutpilot
Andy, where do you get the 30 x 30 intercooler radiators? I'd be interested in checking them out. I've also heard of people using the condenser core from EB Falcons (Exposed tubes on the ends) as the intercooler radiator, how does this go? I'll look into the 3-4 core radiator, any suggestions of who is good?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:58 pm
by eliteforce32
i run twin subaru i/c radiators on the back of the ute with my cooler, keeps it out of the mud and gets fresh air from side of ute
..... oh and u didn't say wether it was ute or not, just in case u hadn't thought about it for possible mounts spot rather than the radiator
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:47 pm
by tweak'e
have a read of this
http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm
and you could even give them a call/email and see what size rad they recommend. it wont hurt to go to big
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:54 am
by Dzltec
We are an agent for PWR produstc, thats what comes in there kit. I wouldnt use a condensor, I only use products that work or are desined for the application.
Rutpilot, I was refering to putting the i/c rad in front of the condensor, that is how its done, no issues in fitting.
At the end of the day, the best system is one that has been fully designed and matched, not a piece from here and a piece from there.
Andy
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:23 pm
by rutpilot
Thanks guys, it's given me more food for thought. When running the I/C radiator in front of the A/C condenser, do you rely on the engine fan or add a 12v fan to push the air through? Seems the more you delve into intercooling the more complicated it gets! Listened to a 45 minute argument between two rice burner boyz about water flow rates for their intercoolers.
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:18 am
by Dzltec
If you buy a proper kit, it will come with a fan to put on the i/c radiator.
Andy
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:38 pm
by coxy321
I was trying to find this the other day when i posted up on this thread. Check this out, about half way down:
http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm
I looked them up a few years ago after reading up on a TD Hilux or Rodeo test mule that they had - it was off its head.
Coxy
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:05 am
by coxy321
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:10 pm
by tweak'e
i'm not a fan of the barrel types. a fair few comments around on that they do not work as well as they are rated. you need one a lot bigger than they say.
also fitting them can be a big issue simply because they are so fat and long. i saw a pic of one of the kits and it was almost a front mount, which is odd as you can fit a intercooler between the turbo and intake manifold.
custom made ones usually work better because you can make them fit the application. downside is cost and not being available off the shelf.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:43 pm
by coxy321
A fair few of the bolt on kits offer a water-air intercooler option (Denco??). ARE would be the people to ask. I'm pretty sure they have the same idea (albeit a tried/tested opinion) about those particular types needing to be fairly big. That is unless you want to have an esky full of dry ice as the main heat transfer unit....
Coxy
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:14 pm
by nzdarin
tweak'e wrote:
i'm not a fan of the barrel types. a fair few comments around on that they do not work as well as they are rated. you need one a lot bigger than they say.
also fitting them can be a big issue simply because they are so fat and long. i saw a pic of one of the kits and it was almost a front mount, which is odd as you can fit a intercooler between the turbo and intake manifold.
custom made ones usually work better because you can make them fit the application. downside is cost and not being available off the shelf.
The biggest mistake people make with an I/C is they get one too big and then it doesn't work. If you don't have enough air flowing through it then there won't be enough surface contact to cool the air. You need to have some pressure drop other it isn't working, about 1psi is about right.
It is even more critical with a barrel I/C as they are smaller so you can much bigger quite easily. ie you can fit something way to big with ease.
I've talked to someone who was complaining about there PWR cooler which was the same as mine exactly, but they had over 100hp less. Mine works fine, and I'm alot closer to the rating but still about 100 under. ie The cooler is rated at 650 and I have just under 550 and the guy complaining has about 450.
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:23 pm
by tweak'e
nzdarin wrote:
The biggest mistake people make with an I/C is they get one too big and then it doesn't work. If you don't have enough air flowing through it then there won't be enough surface contact to cool the air. You need to have some pressure drop other it isn't working, about 1psi is about right.
It is even more critical with a barrel I/C as they are smaller so you can much bigger quite easily. ie you can fit something way to big with ease.
I've talked to someone who was complaining about there PWR cooler which was the same as mine exactly, but they had over 100hp less. Mine works fine, and I'm alot closer to the rating but still about 100 under. ie The cooler is rated at 650 and I have just under 550 and the guy complaining has about 450.
??? if your underflowing it then there should be excess surface aera which should give you better cooling. you got the temps they where getting?
the info i saw was guys having to fit the biggest one they could get to get any decent cooling, the one sized for there motor was not getting it very cool at all. the comment was to get double the size to get it to cool properly.
i know they are tricky to correctly size but going smaller to get better cooling sounds really odd.
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:43 pm
by tomahawkracefab
Interesting to read comments...my last 2.5 yrs of wages at an OEM involved engineering prototype and development/testing of american diesels for local market...along with 20yrs diesel experience...so i feel i'm more than qualified to comment....barrel air to water, 30 year old tech..pushed now because it's cheap to make..comes in lots of little bits...(easily adaptable to any vehicle)...but marginal efficiency...all it does is transfer heat...you still have to get rid of it..with a 10 amp thermo fan or a tiny core with vehicle air speed ? come-on, ...air to air charge cooling has proven to be efficient..but many things to consider...ambient temp and airflow...pressure drop and temp drop....at least you have potential for cooling with a crank driven fan or vehicle air speed..but too big a core no good ? not in my experience.....how much do you want to cool and what lag is acceptable?....special occasion...putting on ceramic suit with teflon coating....withstands flaming and sh*t thrown won't stick.....
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:54 pm
by coxy321
tomahawkracefab wrote:Interesting to read comments...my last 2.5 yrs of wages at an OEM involved engineering prototype and development/testing of american diesels for local market...along with 20yrs diesel experience...so i feel i'm more than qualified to comment....barrel air to water, 30 year old tech..pushed now because it's cheap to make..comes in lots of little bits...(easily adaptable to any vehicle)...but marginal efficiency...all it does is transfer heat...you still have to get rid of it..with a 10 amp thermo fan or a tiny core with vehicle air speed ? come-on, ...air to air charge cooling has proven to be efficient..but many things to consider...ambient temp and airflow...pressure drop and temp drop....at least you have potential for cooling with a crank driven fan or vehicle air speed..but too big a core no good ? not in my experience.....how much do you want to cool and what lag is acceptable?....special occasion...putting on ceramic suit with teflon coating....withstands flaming and sh*t thrown won't stick.....
I think the biggest issue with going too big is lag (i know from experience too!!), but i think the biggest advantage of the water-air ones is that if you hit something up front, its only the heat transfer that gets damaged (cheaper to replace one of those than a whole FMI). However, as you said, the heat still needs to be transferred, and a sub-standard water-air setup's ability to do this would be questionable. As stated somewhere above, get a kit that will suit the application correctly, and that suits your driving style and budget.
Coxy
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:35 am
by nzdarin
So if the air flows through the cooler without surface contact then how much cooling can take place? I won't question anyones experience but going too big with your I/C will reduce cooling. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree that an I/C MUST provide pressure drop to be effective. Obviously you want this as little as possible, but if you take it away then the I/C is doing nothing but increas lag.
Water to air is complex, it does take a bit to set up but if you want I/C to work in all conditions it is a better option than front mount air to air. Yes it is about heat transfere, so I'm use it as it allows me to transfere the heat to a place that I can ALWAYS get rid of it. I have a nice big radiator on the deck with a decent fan. I wish I could use air to air because it is so much simplier but due to NZ mud it would be a waste of time. The biggest advantage with water to air is you can get the same amount of cooling with a smaller I/C so it is easier to fit in the engine bay and you can keep intake shorter and so reduce lag. The down side is complexity, cost etc.
One last coment (well not the last!!!!). How many have water to air that doesn't work so blame the barrell rather than the tiny radiator? They then put a bigger barrell in so increasing the water volume creating a heat sink which buffers the radiator allowing it time to cool the water?
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:04 pm
by coxy321
I suppose that if you have a good enough heat transfer at the front, you could run whatever size intercooler you wanted, cause you know it will remove the heat.
Has anyone built a water-air intercooler setup that uses the refrigeration system (aircon) to transfer the heat out of the water?? That would be "cool"!!
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:24 pm
by tweak'e
nzdarin wrote:So if the air flows through the cooler without surface contact then how much cooling can take place?
bigger intercooler = more surface area. if the flow is small the air spends more time in the intercooler = better cooling. unless they opened up the fin gaps to get more air flow and reduce the pressure drop.
mind you most of the barrel coolers are one diameter, just different lengths. the first part of the intercooler will cool the air down like a short one, i doubt the rest of the cooler will heat it back up.
more likely they fitted a large intercooler and didn't change the pump/rad to get rid of the heated water fast enough.
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:29 pm
by tweak'e
coxy321 wrote:
Has anyone built a water-air intercooler setup that uses the refrigeration system (aircon) to transfer the heat out of the water?? That would be "cool"!!
"cool" but pointless to a certain degree. the running the aircon costs HP and generates heat. you loose 10kw to make the intake temps a bit cooler. you haven't exactly gained anything. you make temp cooler so you can burn more fuel but you have to burn fuel to make it cooler....no gain made except emptying your wallet
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:45 pm
by Dzltec
I'll throw in my 2cents worth. An intercooler sizing and pipe work is very important. Doesnt matter what type, its all relative.
We have seen 4" barrels loose up to 2.5 psi across them. 6" barrels loose .5-1psi. Don't trust pwr horsepower ratings, it has proven to be incorrect, especially with diesels we have seen.
It all depends on the application. I think that w/air are the best in keeping inlet temps the lowest in all conditions and also reduce or limit lag to a big degree compared to front mount i/cs. Remember its all about time. Time it takes before the air charge starts heating up and loosing density if your i/c isnt cutting the mustard. If you want to drive hard for a long time at low speeds, you will need a very good i/c, a resevoir to take the heat away and something to dissipate the heat. This is where sizing is critical.
Have a look at the ARE commodore i/c that won this years summernats horsepower heroes. Look how much work went into it to take heat away and keep inlet temps cool.
So if you want something that works, test, measure and prove it works. Its the only way.
Andy
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:08 pm
by tweak'e
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:46 am
by benny4x4
Dzltec wrote:I'll throw in my 2cents worth. An intercooler sizing and pipe work is very important. Doesnt matter what type, its all relative.
We have seen 4" barrels loose up to 2.5 psi across them. 6" barrels loose .5-1psi. Don't trust pwr horsepower ratings, it has proven to be incorrect, especially with diesels we have seen.
It all depends on the application. I think that w/air are the best in keeping inlet temps the lowest in all conditions and also reduce or limit lag to a big degree compared to front mount i/cs. Remember its all about time. Time it takes before the air charge starts heating up and loosing density if your i/c isnt cutting the mustard. If you want to drive hard for a long time at low speeds, you will need a very good i/c, a resevoir to take the heat away and something to dissipate the heat. This is where sizing is critical.
Have a look at the ARE commodore i/c that won this years summernats horsepower heroes. Look how much work went into it to take heat away and keep inlet temps cool.
So if you want something that works, test, measure and prove it works. Its the only way.
Hi mate, Could you tell me the best size air/water i/c barrel and front radiator set up to suit GU patrol4.2 diesel
Andy
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:53 am
by Dzltec
In Pwr you want a 6x10" Barrell. Heat exchanger wants to be the biggest you can fit.
Or you can use a Laminova.
Andy
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:25 pm
by benny4x4
Dzltec wrote:In Pwr you want a 6x10" Barrell. Heat exchanger wants to be the biggest you can fit.
Or you can use a Laminova.
Andy
Is that 6"high x 10"long???
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:06 pm
by ledgend80
ok i know its no a nissan but here is a pic of my heat exchanger that i have fitted to my 1hdt. radiator core size is 600x350xsingle core. at the moment i dont have the thermos connected. and engine temp hasent really changed a/c is still cold. so when the thermos are finally connected the engine should run a little cooler and the a/c should go better with the thermos keeping the pressures down thus creating less heat
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:35 pm
by matt.mcinnes
This fits with air con and the grill in either a GU or GQ
GU
GQ
