Outer Limits 4x4 Board

timing belt went on the paj while i was driving it a while ago and now i want to fix it and use it again.
there are 2 belts on the 4d56t (one that turns the pump and cam)
and the lower belt (turns 2 silent shafts)

the lower one is the one that let go when i was driving.

at first we didnt know what went wrong as it just lost power and i pulled over. so we turned the key a few times and everything sounded like normal but it just wouldnt run.
then we noticed the pieces of belt sticking out of the cover so we towed tit home.
if i bent a valve or something then i should be able to hear it when i turn the motor over right?

i dont really want to pull too much apart as it will probably never get finished if i do

im hoping that if i get 2 new belts and line all the marks up that it should start again

is there anything i should check thats easy enough to do?

do a compression test it will tell you straight away if the valves are bent
but if the cam belt didnt snap u should be ok

Doesn't the lower belt run the shafts for the fuel and oil pumps? If so then your timing will fine and if you line it all back up again then it should be sweet.

Fair chance it has damaged the valves, I did an engine job on one once on one & it had broken the rockers and cam caps in the head as well as buggered valves and pistons, mind you it spat the belt at 100kph.

Whack a couple of belts on it anyway as you might be lucky, they have timing marks all over them so it will be easy. Make sure you do the crank bolt up super mega tight ( remember H&M's mates Daihatsu) as they have a tendancy to come loose.

Once you have the belts on, turn the engine over by hand, this is to save you bending valves if the cam timing is out, the engine will just stop wheras the starter will have anough go to bend the valve.

mkpatrol wrote:
Once you have the belts on, turn the engine over by hand, this is to save you bending valves if the cam timing is out, the engine will just stop wheras the starter will have anough go to bend the valve.

too late

its already been turned over a few times since it happened..
the timing marks on the pump, cam and crank are all lined up but the only thing missing is the belt for the 2 silent shafts..

cooter wrote: but if the cam belt didnt snap u should be ok

didnt snap but it did jump a few teeth when i got it home and had a look

what does the lower timing belt do exactly? the 2 silent shafts?

mkpatrol wrote:Fair chance it has damaged the valves, I did an engine job on one once on one & it had broken the rockers and cam caps in the head as well as buggered valves and pistons, mind you it spat the belt at 100kph.

i was only in 2nd or 3rd just after leaving the servo. so maybe 40k

mkpatrol wrote:
Whack a couple of belts on it anyway as you might be lucky, they have timing marks all over them so it will be easy. Make sure you do the crank bolt up super mega tight ( remember H&M's mates Daihatsu) as they have a tendancy to come loose.

im just thinking if i spend the $70 on it and the motor is stuffed anyway then il be pissed

if i gotta replace valves then its a big job isnt it??
id rather just buy another engine for it or sell the whole car if i gotta do a lot of stuffing around

are the silent shafts balance shafts? I've never heard of a silent shaft before.

speaking to a mate tonight and he said "i think they are"

im not sure, not too many people know about this motor exactly

unless the balace shafts dive something else like oil pump, dissy ( I know not applicable here) ect all they do is help balance the motor.

Some motors will shake violently, as in lift wheels of ground type stuff, without the balance shafts. On some motors these are disconected as a performance upgrade (astron II motors ect).

I know nothin bout this particular engine but I would assume there would be some sort of safety devise or other reason why this motor will not run if the belt runs just a balance shaft/s.

If it turns over I would say your fine with internals, pistons n valves or what ever, if the shafts drive the oil pump ( from memory some do this) it may have a low oil preasure shut off like the mq/mk does.

Best of luck mate.

nastytroll wrote:unless the balace shafts dive something else like oil pump, dissy ( I know not applicable here) ect all they do is help balance the motor.

Some motors will shake violently, as in lift wheels of ground type stuff, without the balance shafts. On some motors these are disconected as a performance upgrade (astron II motors ect).

I know nothin bout this particular engine but I would assume there would be some sort of safety devise or other reason why this motor will not run if the belt runs just a balance shaft/s.

If it turns over I would say your fine with internals, pistons n valves or what ever, if the shafts drive the oil pump ( from memory some do this) it may have a low oil preasure shut off like the mq/mk does.

Best of luck mate.

do you think its worth buying the belts? id probably have to buy 20L of diesel too as i drained the tank when i got it home after it happened..

so im looking at $100 for a gamble

nastytroll wrote: as in lift wheels of ground type stuff

ever seen a PAJ offroad

I'm talkin at an idle on driveways, If you can remove the glow plugs n turn the crank with a socket all should be good, I would then buy a belt n some deisel n petrol.

Fit the belts n try start it on deisel, if its farked pour the petrol over it n burn the mutha.

nastytroll wrote: If you can remove the glow plugs n turn the crank with a socket all should be good,

can turn it easy enough without removing the plugs

Not familiar with the motor , but from your pictures it looks like the cam shaft is driven directly from the same belt that drives the fuel pump...(that is very common, so the timing is Tied together on valaves and injection)....its still intact, so the valve timing would have been ok.... so no valve damage.
If you wind the engine over by hand and see if you hear any metal contacting sounds you will varify this....

Id say get a belt, check the timing on all belts including the remaining one and away it will go.

Unless...........

The other belt most likely drives the counter balance shaft and oil pump, in which case it could have seized slightly if you drove it far...... explaining the loss of power...
All depends if it ran long enough

Harb

nastytroll wrote: if its farked pour the petrol over it n burn the mutha.

the thought did cross my mind when i still had full comp on it

but the 5.29s locker etc... came to mind also

Harb wrote:Not familiar with the motor , but from your pictures it looks like the cam shaft is driven directly from the same belt that drives the fuel pump...(that is very common, so the timing is Tied together on valaves and injection)....its still intact, so the valve timing would have been ok.... so no valve damage.
If you wind the engine over by hand and see if you hear any metal contacting sounds you will varify this....

Id say get a belt, check the timing on all belts including the remaining one and away it will go.

thats what i have been thinking... but i dont wana spend coin untill i know its worth it.
it all sounds normal when i turn it over.
there is no strange noises or aything so im thinking the valves etc... are all ok

the only difference is the starter motor sounds like its higher pitched but i havnt really started it for nearly a year so it could be just me

I agree with Harb, give it ago mate.

Harb wrote:
Unless...........

The other belt most likely drives the counter balance shaft and oil pump, in which case it could have seized slightly if you drove it far...... explaining the loss of power...
All depends if it ran long enough

Harb

nah not far.. maybe 300m from the servo..

it was more like driving and turning the ignition on and off.. that kind of loss of power

nastytroll wrote:I agree with Harb, give it ago mate.

will do, as soon as the shop down the road can get me the belt il give it a try..


thanks for the help guys

Just make sure you get the timing right mate..... and then be double sure by winding it over a cuple of times with a socket on the crank, just to make sure no valves hit..... only then hit the starter...

Good luck mate !

Harb

if it needs a new motor you should put new belts on it anyway, so the belt you buy wont be a waste

j-top paj wrote:


what does the lower timing belt do exactly? the 2 silent shafts?

Jtop,

OK the smaller belt drives two balance (silent) shafts for which the left hand lower one in the picture drives the oil pump so it must be connected & yes it will vibrate a lot if they are lot aligned correctly.

Jumping teeth & snapping the belt has the same affect on your valve train.

Even if you were only doing 40kph damage can still occur, it depends on the engine design, the thing is with the speed is that more damage can be done at higher speeds.

Two choices if you dont want to spend money on it, that belt that is on now, is that the buggered one or a good one? If it is good rip the injectors out & do a compression test. As there is no oil pressure make sure you dont wind it for too long. The cylinders that have damaged valves will have nil compression.

Rip the head off. Look for damage under the rocker cover first (like the stuff I encountered before), if there is none there then keep going. Once you have the head off then you can see any damage clearly then you can make a decision from there. This will mean that if everything is OK it will cost more to get on the road because you will have to have the head surface ground & buy a VRS (head gastet set).

What model Paj is it?

Is it worth fixing?

I would suggest that you fit a new balance shaft belt, realign the large belt, and give it a go.

If it vibrates terribly at 2500 ish, then your out 180deg, even if the marks were aligned correctly, ive been caught like this before.

Fit belt, realign cam belt, turn over by hand, if its not fouling anything, start it, and I rekon you will be ok.

If its only 2 teeth out on the cam belt, I rekon you may be lucky and get away with it.

Thats what I would do if it was mine.

Trains

In regards to the belt jumping 2 teeth, it is very unlikely that they did....
If you are just going off the timing marks as they are now, you may have to wind it over many times to get all marks lined up again..... thats the thing with driving pulleys that are different sizes..... so you may be ok in regards to valve timing........ I recon replace the belts and go wheelin

the belts are on order

should get them after the long weekend

In answer to your original post about how do I know if my engine is ok ...... make sure its not a missusisbitchin

still waiting on the belts..





im going to get some diesel for the tank but how do i pump it through the lines? im guessing after all this time id need to do something before it will get the fuel to the injector pump.
i dont think there is an electrical fuel pump in the tank