Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Blew head gasket in the zook today which seized the engine...am sick of the issues with carbys and the like....time for an upgrade....

Other than the MPFI G16...this other engine also came to my attention...mainly due to the fact that a good mate has one and flogs it to death and it just keeps going...(with good maintenance and servicing)

Just a bit of dreaming....

3RZ-FE engine delivers 112kW of power at 4800rpm and 240Nm of torque at 4000rpm which would be perfect for my gearing (4.57 diff, 4.9 tranny, stock sierra 5spd)...and from a quick search would cost about the same as a G16 MPFI baleno engine....

haven't looked into gearboxes etc but from a search it seems like some ppl think it would be a suitable swap....

As this won't be attempted for quite a few months i've got plenty of time to be convinced either way...Am wanting to get into the comp scene for fun as well, and in the end want a reliable setup.

What are some issues that may be run into for swapping this into a WT SWB?

(other than having to buy a hilux box and tranny, and having upgraded axles and cvs, plus laminating diffs, I want to keep as much zook as possible. with almost double the torque of a g16bmpfi engine this would be a powerful setup but I feel would still be reliable with a strengthened zook driveline. )

Weight ?

Would be great for offroad work only but would nose dive under brakes on road.
try doing a search for commo v6 into zuk this should give you an idea of the weight problems with heavy motors.
imo the g16 motor is the best way to go as its still all alloy motor and has been done more than enough times that it allmost falls into the engine bay.

Im assuming you've checked out 4rnrRick's build . I think the main issue you will encounter is that you will need to extend your wheelbase a fair bit to accomodate the lux drivetrain. Other than that I think it would be a pretty killer conversion.

i think you should do it, don't worry about the weight, just put some heavy stuff in the back.

plenty of photo's and detail will be required though.

Yeah I'm up for killer conversion time.... I also think that I have been delaying the inevitable by putting off the purchase of a lwb zook...It seems just to be a natural progression for most on here...

The thought of going to a single cab hilux with the 3rz-fe in it already has crossed my mind...but I love the lightness of zooks and their characteristics...so i don't think that will happen.

I guess with the last 3 or so years I have been on this website with all of my dodgy booty fab mods inspired by many on this website it might be time to bite the bullet and build something that doesn't have "many" dodgy mods. Although I consider my zook overall to be in relatively reliable state for the running gear and body mods etc, its just the engine that has let me down....

It's all part of the learning process though, and as far as I can see the MPFI G16 is keeping a lot of people very happy here so for convenience I might just go with that...but if I can be convinced otherwise then having an engine with twice the torque and some more power would be a sweet little rig....

also zuki krawlers website isn't working so I couldn't view ricks build v840

I think you should do a 3rz & c4 auto conversion to your swb, you've already got good diffs and what not, it'd be a shame to have to do all that work again on a LWB. Plus there isn't enough people modifying the SWB's here in australia, everyone uses the LWB, "because it's easier". Makes me sad, having just purchased my first Suzuki (a SWB) only three weeks ago to convert it into a sand weapon and now i look around, it's all LWB this and LWB that.

dank wrote:
also zuki krawlers website isn't working so I couldn't view ricks build v840

Its also on Pirate.

If you havent checked it out I really urge you to do so. Even if you're not into zooks it is an uber sweet build.

does any one know the weight of the engine? how much more than a 1.6 is it?

yeah I've tried to find the weight on the net but haven't managed to dig deep enough yet...It'll be a major factor in a decision being made...

I was thinking with a lwb to either find a maruti lwb 1.3 Wt width and just swapping everything over. As for comps an engine swap would see me in ccda challenge class with both a g16 or a 3rz-fe so from that point of view its worth spending the time and building a 3rz...although depending on the length of the c4 auto it might make it more viable in my swb if its shorter than the manual.

v840 that is one crazy build. It's way outside of my skills in fabbing but is an awesome setup with 150hp at the wheels...

THe more i search the bigger the can of worms gets! and the more inviting a G16 looks!

the 3rz is a big engine. i think there would be numerous clearance issues. i might run a tape over one this arvy just to put my mind at ease. i think every zook owner goes through the motions of building up a zook and making it very capable for the money, which is great. the the next step is to think up elaborate ideas to make it Even better. problem i think you face is ( i know i am sounding like everyone else now and i'm not one to talk) the 240 nm. sounds great in theory and i would love to see it pushing your newfields but i can't imagine the rear axles appreciating it at all. especially with 34s. so it will be 3rz, yota gearbag tranny and diffs so then your back to driving a toyota heavy car with no a/c ps or cup holders. for comp use this may be ok but for the suzuki purest its a cappuccino with off milk. the g16 is so common now some might think was a factory option, making it not the most exciting thing to talk about but on the flip side it is an efficient, well proven conversion, that has readily available parts and adds minimal weight with usable power and torque. go the 1.6 and you'll be happy forever- attempt the 3rz and you'll be working on it forever
jason

mr green wrote:the 3rz is a big engine. i think there would be numerous clearance issues. i might run a tape over one this arvy just to put my mind at ease. i think every zook owner goes through the motions of building up a zook and making it very capable for the money, which is great. the the next step is to think up elaborate ideas to make it Even better. problem i think you face is ( i know i am sounding like everyone else now and i'm not one to talk) the 240 nm. sounds great in theory and i would love to see it pushing your newfields but i can't imagine the rear axles appreciating it at all. especially with 34s. so it will be 3rz, yota gearbag tranny and diffs so then your back to driving a toyota heavy car with no a/c ps or cup holders. for comp use this may be ok but for the suzuki purest its a cappuccino with off milk. the g16 is so common now some might think was a factory option, making it not the most exciting thing to talk about but on the flip side it is an efficient, well proven conversion, that has readily available parts and adds minimal weight with usable power and torque. go the 1.6 and you'll be happy forever- attempt the 3rz and you'll be working on it forever
jason

I definitely see your point Jason, as I have seen a lot of builds on this website that just take forever to complete. You can pick up 4140 cromo rear axles around the place giving about the same strength as the newfields up front which is what I would do.

I was thinking:

_purchase a Lwb chassis
_setup the 3rz and gearbox (c4 can add marks adapter to hilux transfer, and setting up with strengthened zook diffs.)
_do a ruf on the front diff to centre the engine mass a little + more approach angle
_chop the rear quarter down for departure angle and move rear diff back say 2-3 inches which could work ok with the longer auto box as well in terms of tailshft lengths etc...
_all up wheel base aim of around 100inches would be sweet and achievable when a stock lwb is 93.5 inches.
_Maybe bin the leaf suspension and go coilovers and fab mounts and control arms if I got really serious...

so thats what I would aim to do...whether it could be engineered or not would be another thing. brake upgrade, chassis laminating, diff lamination, and other safety issues would come into play. I think something like what I have outlined could be achievable though.

In the meantime, I'm gonna see if I can get the thing running again just so I can wheel it...I hate not having a 4by that just sits there collecting dust.

I personally think Mr Green has summed it up perfectly. I would be going the 1.6 EFI, they are a great motor, very easy conversion and I doubt you will find the power to weight ratio disappointing, they go very hard compared to a 1.3L carby.

dank wrote:
I was thinking:

_purchase a Lwb chassis
_setup the 3rz and gearbox (c4 can add marks adapter to hilux transfer, and setting up with strengthened zook diffs.)
_do a ruf on the front diff to centre the engine mass a little + more approach angle
_chop the rear quarter down for departure angle and move rear diff back say 2-3 inches which could work ok with the longer auto box as well in terms of tailshft lengths etc...
_all up wheel base aim of around 100inches would be sweet and achievable when a stock lwb is 93.5 inches.
_Maybe bin the leaf suspension and go coilovers and fab mounts and control arms if I got really serious...

so thats what I would aim to do...whether it could be engineered or not would be another thing. brake upgrade, chassis laminating, diff lamination, and other safety issues would come into play. I think something like what I have outlined could be achievable though.

Sounds like a coold build, but a lot of work mate.

I think either take the quick way & go a 1.6mpfi. (add a small toyota blower with relatively low boost for a power pickup while still retaining reliablity.

OR

For a big build like above, if your going to go to the effort of links & coilovers at all, I'd stick with the SWB, extend chassis for engine conv, push the wheelbase out & cut the guards "comp-cut" style, achieve almost 90* approach/departure & a low, flat belly (on the 34's, or for bigger rubber; diff swap & run it wider & a bit higher)... And then save yourself the heartache & money of getting it all passed by an engineer, put it towards a trailer to tow it round on...

I just dont really see the point in buying & bobbing a LWB zuk for wheelbase gain, to then go and do links & coils & still be limited to 33-34" tyre size due to the pissy little stock wheelarches. BUT its your rig so if you really want to build something different i say go for it!

yeah...the reason I say "thinking" in my above posts in exactly that! What I will end up doing in reality will end up pretty mild to what I have described. I love sierras for what they are and things like diff swaps don't really interest me.

Last week on 4wdtv one of the "zukes of hazard" a mildly modded swb coiled zook took second in one of the comps last year running what looked to be about 32 inch tyres...it looked like a great little weapon for the comp it was in which I can't remember the name for... but it goes to show that a little bit of work can produce something cool...

the G16 is probably the most likely candidate but half the reason I started this discussion is to get people thinking about something different. Everytime I think of nicbeer getting air in the vid of his G16b sierra and it definitely convinces me that those things have enough power for my needs. ALthough a J20A might be worth a look as well...

the 3rz would be wicked in a zook but as you all say its a long and sometimes $$$ road to getting something that is "cool" and "awesome" compared to going the tried and tested road and getting "reliability" and "piece of mind".

dank wrote:Everytime I think of nicbeer getting air in the vid of his G16b sierra and it definitely convinces me that those things have enough power for my needs.

You know where my vote is. hehe

Having just completed a G16B Baleno/Trimatic swap into a shorty running 3.9 diffs and a series 4 RH with 35.5" swampers, I agree that G16's have plenty of power.

J20's don't really look like a good swap to me. They make lots of power, but they're big, and there are some other issues like the radiator outlets are on the wrong side, the engine mounts aren't G type, so really, you're starting from scratch, which is why stuff like the 3RZ starts looking good. It is big though, tall, and it's difficult to resolve a gearbox other than a aw4 type toyota auto.

Personally, I think that a 3RZ will be able to destroy a sierra driveline pretty quick. The driveline is way undersized and once the car starts hopping it WILL break.

Have a think about this.

A stock sierra runs 100Nm though about 33:1- 3,300Nm at the wheel.

Your sierra currently runs 100Nm though about 81.7:1 - 8,170Nm at the wheel

The same gearing with a 3RZ - 240Nm through 81.7:1 - 19,608Nm at the wheel.

I'd be going G16B I think, especially if you don't want to run a LWB and get into lots of clearance work.

Steve.

Personally I would go the J20 as it has been done before and parts for the conversion can be bought/copied and it stays all zook. That is if you CBF going to the leangths of such an in depth build, I just think the J20 would be more suited to a zook than a 3RZ.

But as mentioned a G16 mpfi is too easy and power is nothing a turbo can't fix which would probably end up being easier and cheaper than a 3RZ conversion anyway.

I'll disagree with you there GRPABT1.

There's a minimum of $3K in parts in a turbo conversion once ECU, oil cooling etc is taken into account, assuming a new turbo is used. In an off road car, I'm not a big fan of aftermarket turbocharging heat control and tuning get very hard.

I think the hassle of building a turbo G16 with stock reliability will lead to two things -

A) It would have been cheaper and less work to go with a bigger motor
B) Boost will have to be very low so $$ per HP will be poor.

Low boost supercharging might be better (and cheaper) but this will still be dearer than many people will give credit for.

If you seriously think a G16 isn't going to be grunty enough, look at the J20. I think you'd be surprised though- they seem to have plenty for a sierra.

Steve.

By illustrating the fact that there is around double the torque delivery at the wheels with a 3rz and knowing how easy it is to break cvs with a locked front with a 1.3 (!) I can see your point very clearly.

I know it's such an awesome engine (3rz) but the fact is I don't want to have a yota driveline so it pretty much cancels out the 3rz.

With my gearing and the fact that all is needed is an adapter plate to mate to my gearbox it just seems like a J20 won't be worth it compared to a G16. My problem is I want to run a few comps and an increase in engine capacity puts me into challenge class...which means I'm playing with the big boys...I need another option i think...

if you don't want to increase capacity the g13bb would be the easiest conversion going. it is a bolt in engine swap. retain everything you have now, no adapter plates , nothing. not as much power increase as the g16 but the drivability compared to the 13a would be worth it.
jason

I agree, the G13BB would be a good swap, but it is definitely nowhere near as punchy as the G16.

As an aside Dank, read the rules very carefully in relation to comps and a sierra. Normally transfer case gears and wheelbase stretches rule sierras out of classes they would have a hope in.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:I'll disagree with you there GRPABT1.

There's a minimum of $3K in parts in a turbo conversion once ECU, oil cooling etc is taken into account, assuming a new turbo is used. In an off road car, I'm not a big fan of aftermarket turbocharging heat control and tuning get very hard.

I think the hassle of building a turbo G16 with stock reliability will lead to two things -

A) It would have been cheaper and less work to go with a bigger motor
B) Boost will have to be very low so $$ per HP will be poor.

Low boost supercharging might be better (and cheaper) but this will still be dearer than many people will give credit for.

If you seriously think a G16 isn't going to be grunty enough, look at the J20. I think you'd be surprised though- they seem to have plenty for a sierra.

Steve.

You have a point, my point was fit the G16 efi and then later you have the option of boost if you need more power (doubtfull). If I were to choose a zook engine to suit a sierra with boost in mind then I would just start with a G13B mk2/3 as there is already sooooooooo much avaiable to boost these engines and the conversion is a little simpler. But like eeeeeeeeeverybody else has been saying I'd go the G16 efi and K.I.S.S

Rotary - compact, low COG, progressive power delivery, smooth torque curve, loves to rev.

Ah - brings back memories. PRAP, PRAP, PRAP ( peripheral Port 13B ).

Gwagensteve wrote:I agree, the G13BB would be a good swap, but it is definitely nowhere near as punchy as the G16.

As an aside Dank, read the rules very carefully in relation to comps and a sierra. Normally transfer case gears and wheelbase stretches rule sierras out of classes they would have a hope in.

Steve.

thanks for the tip steve. I've done my research and due to the 34s I'm running it puts me in ccda production class which is a naturally aspirated same capacity engine as factory (although i've gotta check about whether the g13bb would count as same engine,), up to 70mm wb increase (ok again as i have 27mm front and back), and 70mm track increase, (will be an issue as I have around 140mm by memory), transfer case gears are free as are axle strength upgrades and diff ratio changes. So I'm pretty close but will need to look into the specifics. the g13bb or M13 engine with the coil packs should be enough power with my gearing.

What sorta power are you making with the 660 steve?

My 660 is quoted as 47kw and 79Nm stock, but I have intercooler and dump pipe upgrades, so mine's making 12lb boost, up from 8lb stock, without any boost contoller/bleed.

My guess is that it has about the same torque and more power than a fresh 1.3 carby.

It will comfortably cruise at 95km/h laden with 34's on it, but does need to be spinning harder than a 1.3 to do it - that's just the nature of a small motor.

Newer K6A's have over 100Nm stock and are more suited to power upgrades (twin cam head, oxygen sensor, knock sensor)

There are heavy restrictions on how these engines can be made legal, so they're not a viable swap into a 1.3 AND anything that doesn't have a "commercial" registration code. (i.e traybacks or "vans")

There's obviously been some relaxation in CCDA regs. Personally, I wouldn't comp a sierra as I don't think comps are designed for anything except GQ/Rangies, but if the rules allow a car set up like yours to compete, then you'll have a ball.

Steve.

I will throw another spanner in here for you to think about . A rotary lighter than all the others and more power.

SAM

Gwagensteve wrote:but if the rules allow a car set up like yours to compete, then you'll have a ball.

Steve.

And that is truly my whole aim. I know that in most instances the advantages of a zook just won't cut it in straight line speed and acceleration when you're competing against the likes of well set up GQs and rangy's but in the rough stuff it might even out a bit, but I sure will have fun setting up the zook to be reliable and strong. I just need a new focus due to a lot of my local hard tracks being closed or "highwayed" I need some motivation to keep in the sport and the comp scene will give me that. Especially the likes of VicWinch and the Piranha Pursuit.


Thats impressive figures for a small capacity engine and from what i've seen they are exciting little motors to drive.

Just one last question as I think I have got the most out of this thread that I can at the moment.

Even though the J20A might not be the most suited conversion due to the issues stated, I think I read somewhere that a G16 to sierra gearbox adapter can be used for the J20A motor to sierra gearbox as well.

Can anyone confirm this?

(as I have been advised that the J20a can be picked up a lot cheaper than a G16)

Thanks for everyone's comments and advice. Its great to get some different points of view, and I will keep everyone updated as to the progress...

Oh yeah - I've done a lot of thinking about a 6 port EFI N/A rotary straight out of a S4 RX7 - these come with an AW-4 based auto.

They don't make really good numbers though, stock - barely any different to a 3RZ. They are small though.

sure with porting/ boost they're grouse.

Same problem though - a rotary zook with gearing and decent tyres will be easily able to smash the driveline.

Steve.

Soon as you start proting it it will become useless offroad must leave the porting standard. You are right though it will smash the driveline but really how many zook buldups are planning on keeping the standard diffs. Even the transfers are showing there weekness.
My preference would be series 4 13b turbo Jatco auto and hilux transfer running into Hilux diffs. Or same engine and auto rover case and 60 series diffs.

SAM