Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hey all, i knwo this is gonna sound hell dumb but what are shackles??, when peopple talk about like a 2 inch lift and shackles, what does that mean. Is that just the shackles that hold the leaves together??
sorry lol im new 2 the whole 4wd thing.

shackles are what the leaf springs atach too. by extending the shackles you are going to lift the leafs. cheap way but not the best way to get a lift

oh true, cheers

This is a stock sierra shackle (taken from the front)



Steve.

hey Steve, does this look like a standard front shackle??

righto i get it, so a longer shackle is gonna give you more lift?? i see.

so simple

i think its somthing lie 2inch extended will give you 1inch lift.

yea, i got my zook with these already on and assumed they were standard, but they do look bigger then stock.....i've just never compared.....i have 2 inch king springs so would they need larger/extended shackles??

reprise - you have standard ones in that pic.

its been mentioned a few times - lengthening shackles has pro's and cons... a 1" extended shackle is about as far as i'd go... i ran 1" extended shackles with my 2" lifted springs and it went great and gave me just a touch more room for my tyres in the guards (215/75s).

well if mine are standard im happy with them....don't need them any bigger for my tyres. they just looked bigger then the ones in Steve's photo so i thought maybe they were larger then standard

I currently play with different shackle lengths to do what I want - my fronts are abut 35mm over stock but my rears are miles longer than stock -maybe 60mm over stock(!). Not for lift though- (per se) but to trim ride height and shackle angle with the funny hybrid springs I have.

There's nothing wrong with standard shackles... and nothing wrong with longer shackles if you know why you're using them.

Steve.

Steve, totally off topic, however i've read a few old threads of yours and always wondered why you choose such thin tyres?? bit out of character to the other zooks on this site.

Just curious!!

Wide tyres suck on sierras.

To tell you the truth, they're 15 years old and I got them from my dad. I'm only using them as an interim tyre until I sort my suspension, but I really really don't like a tyre over 10" wide on a sierra.

Length is far more important than width in a tyre footprint. Wider tyres take more HP to push, have lower ground pressure (actually bad in a sierra) and have less directional stability (they'll slide of cambers etc)

I prefer the narrowest tyre in the height I want, so for 34"s, that's 9" (what I'm running) for 35" it's a Q 78, which is just over 10" wide.

I've had lots of 7.50 16's and 33 9.5's as well.

Wide tyres work great in summer, but all terrains work great in summer too.

We even did some experiments years ago with two identicial cars, both running brand new BFG MT's, one on 31 10.5, the other on 235 85 16 (near enough 32X9) the narrower tyre was far more drivable offroad - heaps easier to turn out of ruts etc.

We have a car in the club with 35 13.5 Krawlers, and on a muddy hill, the owner would much rather be on his flogged old 34 9.5 swampers.

Steve.

Interesting tech on the tyres!
I was going to pm you steve but seen as its been brought up,
on gregs hairdressers sisters friends car you mentioned the rear shackles were moved forward to gain flex. Do you have pics of this set up, I was going to go longer springs but re positioning the shackle mount may give me the down travel Im after.
While were at it whats the secret spring packs your running?
Nik

NIK wrote:Interesting tech on the tyres!
I was going to pm you steve but seen as its been brought up,
on gregs hairdressers sisters friends car you mentioned the rear shackles were moved forward to gain flex. Do you have pics of this set up, I was going to go longer springs but re positioning the shackle mount may give me the down travel Im after.
While were at it whats the secret spring packs your running?
Nik

You can cut the rear shackle mount off the chassis, and slide 35mm it foward and reweld it on.
Give a nice 45ish shackle angle for lotsa droop.

Since we are topic what do you guys think of shackles that are a little longer that is braced in the middle compared to a longer shackle with no bracing....? Does the shackle with out the centre bracing allow better flex but on road the vehicle is more "loose' or unstable compared to a braced shackle might have more rigidity but not offer as much flex.....?

I know this sounds silly but Im after a tighter or more responsive feeling from the steering and suspension on the road (Yes its a Sierra and why did I go SPOA) and thinking that getting braced shackles or making some not so much for more lift but a better suspension feel might help...?

NIK wrote:Interesting tech on the tyres!
I was going to pm you steve but seen as its been brought up,
on gregs hairdressers sisters friends car you mentioned the rear shackles were moved forward to gain flex. Do you have pics of this set up, I was going to go longer springs but re positioning the shackle mount may give me the down travel Im after.
While were at it whats the secret spring packs your running?
Nik

Yep we moved the hanger forward about 50mm and immediately gained some squat in the rear end ( with a nice soft intial rate - the complete opposite of a stock siera) and 2" of extra droop.

That car runs at least 2" of bumpstop spacer though so the shackles don't invert or sit flat on the chassis. It's basically set up to settle onto the bumpstops when climbing which really keeps the car planted and stable when on big angles.


As for my junk, it's still in a interim build stage ATM. It runs a horrible heavy flat main leaf in the front. and ome 2nd and 3rd leaves (they're from a rear OME pack) That's because I don't have any OME front springs lying around and won't spend money on front leaves. Front shackles are about 35mm over stock I run 2" bumpstop spacers and commodore shocks. The spring pads are drilled to bring the axle 30mm forward and my front spring pads are welded for 3˚ more caster.

The rear runs a 2" longer than stock mainleaf and OME 2nd, 3rd and 4th leaves (no overloads.) This setup is actually a bit too low for my liking but did add 1" of wheelbase. Shocks are stock and I have long rear shackles (about 60mm over stock) and 2" bumpstop spacers.

The plan will be OME rears in the front and a custom rear pack 10" longer than stock to stretch the WB 5" This will centre the rear tyre up under the tray and should give me plenty of travel and a nice ride.

I don't like braced shackles on sierras. I think you'll find lots of the shackles sold for sierras are far too heavy. There might be a case for a braced shackle in the front (steering) as some of our stuff with longer front shackles and rubber bushes can get a bit loose in the front end but I can't see any reason in the back.

I've never built a braced shackle and my shackles are usually 3X25mmX50mm C channel although I might post some photos later today of the shackles I made up for my car - they just look a bit different and technical, no real advantage over the channel shackles.

Steve.

Great tech steve as usual,
Im thinking at the moment hilux rears, wider spring to help with wrap, longer for more travel plus should hold more weight? Family plus gear is heavy
Or custom longer leaves for more travel but think it was around $150 a side for 1st and 2nd leave and reuse the rest of mine.
Or just move the shackle hanger forward. The last 2 mods will require a track bar and more leaves to help with load carrying.
Nik

i have hilux fronts all round - they DO NOT stop tramp and wrap.. sure, with the load leaf in its greatly reduced, but the ride is like a go-kart and it wants to lift wheels on corners.

You have fronts dont you,did you remove leaves? I was thinking rears because if they can handle the power of a v6 in my mates lux without wrap surely it would slow it down in my zuk?
What do you mean rides like a go kart, stiff with no give? And could you explain lift a wheel around corners as the onlytime Ive seen that is when the front shocks were too short on my coily so it would pull the front off the ground around corners.
Nik

hey steve if your after front springs i got a heap of bits and pieces from front springs. got stockys and even some lifted ones. Pm me and ill see if i got anything you want.

running fronts with load leaf removed... hilux rears have a way higher spring rate than fronts - fronts with a load leaf are only a small amount stiffer than standard zuk rears.. without the load leaf theyre pretty much spot on.

rides like a go kart - yeah no give at all, way too stiff.... and because of the stiffness the suspension isnt allowed to work and keep the wheels on the ground, instead a wheel just lifts. scary!

hilux rears youll find are also a lot longer than hilux fronts - your departure angle in the rear will suck, and you might have to do a chassis extension in the rear to fit it in. my lux fronts moved the rear hanger back all the way on the chassis - ie: the shackle pin is in line with the end of the chassis, and the shackle hangs outside of that under the bumper. the front side of the leaf, the hanger is only half on the old mounting point, with additional plates and gussets holding it on. All in all the rear diff moved back about 1" in the end. So unless the hilux rear are only 1" longer, and you dont do a chassis extension, your diff will be moving forwards =/

Front end of mine has a 6" chassis extension, and the springs use all of it (front diff is 6" forward). The balance on the zuk has changed heaps now with the motor essentially sitting "further back" on the diffs - the weight ratio feels far better, especially going up steep hills - doesnt feel so much like it wants to backflip.

Cool thanks, mine is a lwb so no worries about fitting the rears in or bothering depature angle. They are 48" long with the centre bolt 20" from the fixed eye so should keep the diff in the same spot but I might redrill the pads to move it an inch back. Depends on room as the hilux diffs are alot bigger and I dont want to move the tank.
Im hoping if I play around with the leaves Ishould get a good mix to support 2 teenagers rear draws with recovery gear plus 35 hanging off the back but still allow a bit of flex
Nik

Hey steve just a heads up in regards to saftey-tyres genrealy have a maximum life span of 10 years so in other words - dont drive to fast for all our sakes.

cheers

They're swampers so they're not even road legal, and yes, they are hard as nails.

Steve.

MUD-PIGSIERRA wrote: Im after a tighter or more responsive feeling from the steering and suspension on the road

Front panhard bar maybe.
Peter.

Something I've thought about but never really resolved ( lazy ) is the relationship between articulation and spring/shackle/shackle bush "twist".

By twist I dont mean the normal fore and aft movement of the shackle in the bush, rather the sideways motion that the rubber in the bush seems designed to allow.

When you look at most Sierra shackle bushes you can see evidence of distortion which probably is caused by twist.

I assume longer shackles create greater leverage on the bushes - effectively softening the bush to twist probably allowing the leaf to twist more easily and thus increase articulation...... ?

Just thinking out aloud - are there any engineering solutions to allow twist without nasty side effects ?

MightyMouse wrote:Something I've thought about but never really resolved ( lazy ) is the relationship between articulation and spring/shackle/shackle bush "twist".

By twist I dont mean the normal fore and aft movement of the shackle in the bush, rather the sideways motion that the rubber in the bush seems designed to allow.

When you look at most Sierra shackle bushes you can see evidence of distortion which probably is caused by twist.

I assume longer shackles create greater leverage on the bushes - effectively softening the bush to twist probably allowing the leaf to twist more easily and thus increase articulation...... ?

Just thinking out aloud - are there any engineering solutions to allow twist without nasty side effects ?

Orbital spring eyes - see link

http://www.alcanspring.com/orbit-eye.htm

Layto....

Thanks Layto - they seem like a good idea at least in theory.

Anyone had any experience with them or similar ?

I think interest in these has petered out. Far a while there in the US (around 1997-1999) everyone was persuing ideas for high articulation with leaves and now it's all about coilovers and airshocks.

I think these orbit eyes would work, but I'd be interested to know what they'd do to roll stiffness.

I believe they were quite high maintenance which is one of the disadvantages of them.

Steve.