Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Enjoy. Argue. Debate. Ignore. All good.

http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=766

Paul

Wow. That's impressive work

The size of soot isn't the important bit, It isn't an abrasive agent. It's like colesterol in your blood, It starts to clump together in your oil galleries and restricts flow to vital components. New oil contains detergents that clean these deposits out, as your oil ages it loses these detergents and soot will build up. This is why oil should be changed as per manufactures recommendation. I agree that most oil could last to 10k quite easily with no short term ill effects, but it will over time reduce the life of your engine, 5k changes are recommended because not all engines operate under the same conditions, oil in engines operating under very harsh condition may not even make it to 5k before they require changing. It is just manufactures being safe.

Interestlingly cummins have introduced a system on the large engines were by oil is slowly fed into the fuel system an burned, the sump is topped up automatically from an external tank and keeps the oil level constant, you no longer do oil changes you simple make sure the oil tank is topped up. This has led to a substantial increase in engine life because the oil remain at a constant quality, unlike in a conventional system were the quality is quite high to begin with and quite poor by the end of the oils lifecycle. Unfortunately because of laws about tampering with diesel fuel almost all of the oil burn systems have been turned off.

I know the oil burn function on the 6MW (yes that is an M) HFO Watsila engines where I used to work regularly made the unit injectors play up and clog. They ended up turnign it off and sending the waste oil from the skimmer to the boiler furnace instead.
But yes, still total consumption, no change process

10,000 is the Toyota recommendation. 5000 is the "common" practice, esp with turbo. I think the practice may be unescessary for my motor based on these results. Others experience may vary.

Paul

Soot DOES cause wear, not just restrict flow. Even though primary soot particles are 20-30 nm.

Most fleet/industrial diesel users change their engine oil at 3% soot. If you want to extend your oil change intervals, install a bypass filter - like the MANN+HUMMEL centrifuge.

No one said soot doesn't cause wear, the term I used was "abrasive agent". Meaning that the primary damage soot will do is block galleries, just about any particles in your oil will cause wear.

Be careful changing oil based on soot percentage, some tests give a soot reading as a total percentage in the oil, but some give it as an allowable percentage. Don't change oil at 3% of allowable percentage or you will be changing it every second day, Only at 3% total percentage.

ShortyFortyTwo wrote:No one said soot doesn't cause wear, the term I used was "abrasive agent". Meaning that the primary damage soot will do is block galleries, just about any particles in your oil will cause wear.

Be careful changing oil based on soot percentage, some tests give a soot reading as a total percentage in the oil, but some give it as an allowable percentage. Don't change oil at 3% of allowable percentage or you will be changing it every second day, Only at 3% total percentage.

Semantics...

I have never seen a case of soot blocking galleries as you claim. Soot particles are so small that they (usually) remain in a colloid-like dispersion. Soot does decrease the interfacial energy of the oil though, which will reduce its ability to lubricate - which is maybe what you trying to say.

double post

Don't put words in my mouth or try to tell me what I'm saying. I know exactly what I'm saying. The reason you've never seen soot blocking oil galleries is because people change their oil.

Ok, listen into what I am saying, don't misquote me or tell me what I am trying to say. As engines run they form sludgy deposits, a percentage of this "sludge" is soot. When you change your oil not only is the new oil clean but it contains detergents which break up these deposits. If you don't believe me take an old B or H series toyota engine and run it for about 30,000kms without changing the oil(if it makes it that far), what you are left with is oil that closely resembles grease due to sludge build up.

Since you've never seen an engine with sludge build up in the galleries I recommend next time you know someone with a hydraulic lifter that is tapping, pull it apart and tell me what you find? Since i'm so nice i'll save you the time, you'll find it's orifices are blocked. Companies make additives to clean the galleries of dirty engines, or is that just a scam? I can't believe you have come on here and tried to tell me that engines don't suffer from deposits in the oil galleries.

Typical engineer, you can use big terms but your obvious lack of real world experience really shows. That isn't pixie dust blocking galleries.

ShortyFortyTwo wrote: Interestlingly cummins have introduced a system on the large engines were by oil is slowly fed into the fuel system an burned, the sump is topped up automatically from an external tank and keeps the oil level constant, you no longer do oil changes you simple make sure the oil tank is topped up.

Pollution laws prevent this now.

Would be interesting to see how long your oil could be re-used after processing from a centrifuge to pull particles out.

in other words, how long until the additive packs are consumed...


I wonder how long until we all start going to a depot to reprocess our oil and top up the additive packs?

ShortyFortyTwo wrote:Don't put words in my mouth or try to tell me what I'm saying. I know exactly what I'm saying. The reason you've never seen soot blocking oil galleries is because people change their oil.

Ok, listen into what I am saying, don't misquote me or tell me what I am trying to say. As engines run they form sludgy deposits, a percentage of this "sludge" is soot. When you change your oil not only is the new oil clean but it contains detergents which break up these deposits. If you don't believe me take an old B or H series toyota engine and run it for about 30,000kms without changing the oil(if it makes it that far), what you are left with is oil that closely resembles grease due to sludge build up.

Since you've never seen an engine with sludge build up in the galleries I recommend next time you know someone with a hydraulic lifter that is tapping, pull it apart and tell me what you find? Since i'm so nice i'll save you the time, you'll find it's orifices are blocked. Companies make additives to clean the galleries of dirty engines, or is that just a scam? I can't believe you have come on here and tried to tell me that engines don't suffer from deposits in the oil galleries.

Typical engineer, you can use big terms but your obvious lack of real world experience really shows. That isn't pixie dust blocking galleries.

Of course I have seen sludge. I have seen engines that are full of sludge. Sludge is not soot, I doubt the soot content of sludge is much higher than in normal oil, but haven't seen any test to prove or disprove this. I can show you petrol engines with sludge deposits just as bad as any diesel.

I can show you the same sludge in soot free samples of crude oil...

Bottom line SOOT /=/ SLUDGE

My goal was to extend from 5000, back to factory 10,000, or maybe more. I'll go 10/10 (oil/filter) next as opposed to the 15/5 I was doing before. Then try 15/15 and maybe 20/20.

If anyone cared to do simialr with differnet brand stuff would be really interesting.

I have noticed when soot goes up too much, so does iron - wear, and the oil gets thicker.

Elemental analysis doesn't really show that much, as a detergent is a complex molecule. Broken down or combined with something else, the elemental balance is still the same to a spectrograph, is the molecules it makes up that have changed. Analysis may show same / same calcium, yet the calcium is now 100% "consumed" by being bound with something else.
Also with Iron, big particles won't show up in Fe count, but will be there in magnetic count. Catastrphic damage may not be immediatly obvious.

Finally, with filters, it's not just micron rating, it's capacity. No point in adding an external filter if the micron rating is the same, and the current one still has heaps of capacity left. I'm assuming toyota was prob conservative here and that 10,000 changes in a good motor would be about 30%-50% filter capacity to allow for poor fuel, cheap oil, and worn engines.

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:My goal was to extend from 5000, back to factory 10,000, or maybe more. I'll go 10/10 (oil/filter) next as opposed to the 15/5 I was doing before. Then try 15/15 and maybe 20/20.

If anyone cared to do simialr with differnet brand stuff would be really interesting.

I have noticed when soot goes up too much, so does iron - wear, and the oil gets thicker.

Elemental analysis doesn't really show that much, as a detergent is a complex molecule. Broken down or combined with something else, the elemental balance is still the same to a spectrograph, is the molecules it makes up that have changed. Analysis may show same / same calcium, yet the calcium is now 100% "consumed" by being bound with something else.
Also with Iron, big particles won't show up in Fe count, but will be there in magnetic count. Catastrphic damage may not be immediatly obvious.

Finally, with filters, it's not just micron rating, it's capacity. No point in adding an external filter if the micron rating is the same, and the current one still has heaps of capacity left. I'm assuming toyota was prob conservative here and that 10,000 changes in a good motor would be about 30%-50% filter capacity to allow for poor fuel, cheap oil, and worn engines.

Paul

Paul - there are 2 different types of filter systems - full flow and bypass. Full flow filters just remove the rocks. Bypass filters can even remove primary soot particles (in the case of centrifuges).

Oh and "micron ratings" of filters are a bit of a misnomer, as a filter isn't a sieve. A filter with a 25 micron rating will usually remove 50% of 25 micron particles, and may still let through 10% of 40 micron particles.

As you have noticed, there is a good correlation between soot levels and wear indicators. That is why most/all modern (heavy duty) diesels have bypass filters/centrifuges.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:My goal was to extend from 5000, back to factory 10,000, or maybe more. I'll go 10/10 (oil/filter) next as opposed to the 15/5 I was doing before. Then try 15/15 and maybe 20/20.

If anyone cared to do simialr with differnet brand stuff would be really interesting.

I have noticed when soot goes up too much, so does iron - wear, and the oil gets thicker.

Elemental analysis doesn't really show that much, as a detergent is a complex molecule. Broken down or combined with something else, the elemental balance is still the same to a spectrograph, is the molecules it makes up that have changed. Analysis may show same / same calcium, yet the calcium is now 100% "consumed" by being bound with something else.
Also with Iron, big particles won't show up in Fe count, but will be there in magnetic count. Catastrphic damage may not be immediatly obvious.

Finally, with filters, it's not just micron rating, it's capacity. No point in adding an external filter if the micron rating is the same, and the current one still has heaps of capacity left. I'm assuming toyota was prob conservative here and that 10,000 changes in a good motor would be about 30%-50% filter capacity to allow for poor fuel, cheap oil, and worn engines.

Paul

Paul - there are 2 different types of filter systems - full flow and bypass. Full flow filters just remove the rocks. Bypass filters can even remove primary soot particles (in the case of centrifuges).

Oh and "micron ratings" of filters are a bit of a misnomer, as a filter isn't a sieve. A filter with a 25 micron rating will usually remove 50% of 25 micron particles, and may still let through 10% of 40 micron particles.

As you have noticed, there is a good correlation between soot levels and wear indicators. That is why most/all modern (heavy duty) diesels have bypass filters/centrifuges.

Z334A (Cruiser filter and pics in the links on my website) are a dual element type. I have dicsussed my reservations there, as there is no way I can think of to determine element capcity with a dual element type. Even the external ones the only way I can think of would be flow measurement, maybe some spinny beads like an old fuel filter.
Only small diesel I heard of with centrifuge was the Rover, and they dropped it off it for some reason. Some bikes used ot have them too.

I dunno if there is much benefit to be had with soot though.I know some of the guys pushed the 1HDFT direct injection motor to 60,000km with synthetic and still got passes, whereas the 1HZ is too sooty (indirect injection). The one I wonder is do any of the things out there srub the soot well enough to make synthetic oil a viable proposition. I doubt the base stock for dino oil would last past 20,000km, even with additive topups. Syntheitc is supposed to go 150K+, if you can scrub it and replace the additives. With soot being sub micron size, I haven't heard of any fitler that goes that small.

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:My goal was to extend from 5000, back to factory 10,000, or maybe more. I'll go 10/10 (oil/filter) next as opposed to the 15/5 I was doing before. Then try 15/15 and maybe 20/20.

If anyone cared to do simialr with differnet brand stuff would be really interesting.

I have noticed when soot goes up too much, so does iron - wear, and the oil gets thicker.

Elemental analysis doesn't really show that much, as a detergent is a complex molecule. Broken down or combined with something else, the elemental balance is still the same to a spectrograph, is the molecules it makes up that have changed. Analysis may show same / same calcium, yet the calcium is now 100% "consumed" by being bound with something else.
Also with Iron, big particles won't show up in Fe count, but will be there in magnetic count. Catastrphic damage may not be immediatly obvious.

Finally, with filters, it's not just micron rating, it's capacity. No point in adding an external filter if the micron rating is the same, and the current one still has heaps of capacity left. I'm assuming toyota was prob conservative here and that 10,000 changes in a good motor would be about 30%-50% filter capacity to allow for poor fuel, cheap oil, and worn engines.

Paul

Paul - there are 2 different types of filter systems - full flow and bypass. Full flow filters just remove the rocks. Bypass filters can even remove primary soot particles (in the case of centrifuges).

Oh and "micron ratings" of filters are a bit of a misnomer, as a filter isn't a sieve. A filter with a 25 micron rating will usually remove 50% of 25 micron particles, and may still let through 10% of 40 micron particles.

As you have noticed, there is a good correlation between soot levels and wear indicators. That is why most/all modern (heavy duty) diesels have bypass filters/centrifuges.

Z334A (Cruiser filter and pics in the links on my website) are a dual element type. I have dicsussed my reservations there, as there is no way I can think of to determine element capcity with a dual element type. Even the external ones the only way I can think of would be flow measurement, maybe some spinny beads like an old fuel filter.
Only small diesel I heard of with centrifuge was the Rover, and they dropped it off it for some reason. Some bikes used ot have them too.

I dunno if there is much benefit to be had with soot though.I know some of the guys pushed the 1HDFT direct injection motor to 60,000km with synthetic and still got passes, whereas the 1HZ is too sooty (indirect injection). The one I wonder is do any of the things out there srub the soot well enough to make synthetic oil a viable proposition. I doubt the base stock for dino oil would last past 20,000km, even with additive topups. Syntheitc is supposed to go 150K+, if you can scrub it and replace the additives. With soot being sub micron size, I haven't heard of any fitler that goes that small.

Paul

Paul, a lot of the work that I do is filter R&D. (oil) Filters will find it hard to remove particles lower than about 1-5 microns, as due to the high viscosity of oil (compared to water and air). This is because only inertial and interception (and sieving) collection mechanisms operate effectively under those conditions, diffusional collection is negligible (needed for smaller partricles). However centrifuges are a completely different story...

As I posted earlier, there are many fleet operators in Europe and the US only doing oil changes when they reach 3% soot. At a recent conference, one company presented results of a field test with bypass centrifuge(s) fitted to a diesel fleet. When 3 centrifuges were fitted (these were big engines), oil was only changed at about 60k km!!!

The TD5 LR engine is fitted with a MANN+HUMMEL bypass centrifuge. I think the factory spec is oil every 25k km. However when I spoke to MANN+HUMMEL they said that was too frequent in their opinion.