Outer Limits 4x4 Board

where /how is the best place to buy a solid pinion spacer for 80 rear diff.and shims....... im in fraser coast area but doesnt matter where from.. or does anyone know the dimensions of one so i could get one made ....

x2 ??
But I'm in Albury & would like F & R
Cheers Dan

I could only find shims from toyota genuine spares (in vic). But it's hard to believe aftermarket (i.e. <$8.50) shims aren't available...

69mud wrote:where /how is the best place to buy a solid pinion spacer for 80 rear diff.and shims....... im in fraser coast area but doesnt matter where from.. or does anyone know the dimensions of one so i could get one made ....

What are these required for?

ask yourself why you want a solid spacer. the only advantage is the ability to change the pinion oil seal without having to replace the collapsible spacer and/or re-set the pinion bearing preload. they do not in any way enhance the strength or performance of the diff.

still don't get it. What are they?

bruiser wrote:still don't get it. What are they?

the spacer sits between the two bearings. it stops the bearing from bein crushed from over tighting

From my web wheeling it seems the US guys with massive reduction gearing and big tyres like the solid spacers as it keeps the backlash better. When their drivetrain gets put under massive loads when rock crawling it seems the stock crush tube can actually get crushed further and affect the pinion/ring gear backlash. The solid spacer prevents this.

Most times using one would be overkill and if you're paying someone to set it up for you will probably end up costing you more labour cos they can be a pain to setup right.

Hilux diffs are shockers for hammering the colapsable spacer down and you wind up with excessive backlash on your pinion, which destroys your CW and P.

Solid spacers cant really be "bought"

They have to be made individually for the diff, then machined down until they are within tolerance.

I call BS. if the spacer becomes loose, it is because the bearings have collapsed, not the spacer. with or without the spacer, it is the nut that keeps the bearings in place. collapsible or solid, all the spacer does is give you something to do the nut up tight against.

all the loads on the pinion bearings tend to force the cones APART. the screw action of the pinion in the crwonwheel tends to pull the pinion in towards the axle axis. the natural tendency of the taper on the bearings further accentuates this separation under high loads. Even in reverse where the screw action of the gears tends to force the pinion back towards the bearing, at the other end of the pinion you hav a shaft with a slip joint so until the front bering rollers are foced against the shoulder of the cone, the spacer will not collapse. if the rollers on either bearing bottom on the shoulders of the cones, it's all over, the pinion teeth will walk over the crownwheel teeth or snap off.

with big reduction (lower ratios than 4.56 or 4.875), the gears themselves become the weak link.

if someone is able to show me conclusively how a solid spacer in anyh way enhances the actual strength of a diff, I'll happily recant. I might even go make myself a set of collapsible spacers. You'll have to ue lots of diagrams and small words - I'm obviously not very bright

i have solid spacers front and rear in my 80 keeps the backlash set im running 37" tyres . i changed the colapsable ones 4 times in 2yrs have nt had a problem with these and would never go back to old shit again. what u have to do is go to a diff place and get them to machine them up so as ur backlash can be set to one setting you'll never look back

dumbdunce wrote:I call BS. if the spacer becomes loose, it is because the bearings have collapsed, not the spacer. with or without the spacer, it is the nut that keeps the bearings in place. collapsible or solid, all the spacer does is give you something to do the nut up tight against.

all the loads on the pinion bearings tend to force the cones APART. the screw action of the pinion in the crwonwheel tends to pull the pinion in towards the axle axis. the natural tendency of the taper on the bearings further accentuates this separation under high loads. Even in reverse where the screw action of the gears tends to force the pinion back towards the bearing, at the other end of the pinion you hav a shaft with a slip joint so until the front bering rollers are foced against the shoulder of the cone, the spacer will not collapse. if the rollers on either bearing bottom on the shoulders of the cones, it's all over, the pinion teeth will walk over the crownwheel teeth or snap off.

with big reduction (lower ratios than 4.56 or 4.875), the gears themselves become the weak link.

if someone is able to show me conclusively how a solid spacer in anyh way enhances the actual strength of a diff, I'll happily recant. I might even go make myself a set of collapsible spacers. You'll have to ue lots of diagrams and small words - I'm obviously not very bright

Dumbdunce, you are a very wise man and a knower of all things toyota, but I dont agree with you on this one. I have had two diffs fail and both because of the crush spacer. As the pinion seperates from the crown wheel (in reverse) the crush spacer crushed more and teeth ripped off. I replaced them with solid spacers about two years ago and have had no issues since. I'm sorry i cant supply any diagrams or smaller words, but it is my humble experience.....

treebruiser wrote:

dumbdunce wrote:I call BS. if the spacer becomes loose, it is because the bearings have collapsed, not the spacer. with or without the spacer, it is the nut that keeps the bearings in place. collapsible or solid, all the spacer does is give you something to do the nut up tight against.

all the loads on the pinion bearings tend to force the cones APART. the screw action of the pinion in the crwonwheel tends to pull the pinion in towards the axle axis. the natural tendency of the taper on the bearings further accentuates this separation under high loads. Even in reverse where the screw action of the gears tends to force the pinion back towards the bearing, at the other end of the pinion you hav a shaft with a slip joint so until the front bering rollers are foced against the shoulder of the cone, the spacer will not collapse. if the rollers on either bearing bottom on the shoulders of the cones, it's all over, the pinion teeth will walk over the crownwheel teeth or snap off.

with big reduction (lower ratios than 4.56 or 4.875), the gears themselves become the weak link.

if someone is able to show me conclusively how a solid spacer in anyh way enhances the actual strength of a diff, I'll happily recant. I might even go make myself a set of collapsible spacers. You'll have to ue lots of diagrams and small words - I'm obviously not very bright

Dumbdunce, you are a very wise man and a knower of all things toyota, but I dont agree with you on this one. I have had two diffs fail and both because of the crush spacer. As the pinion seperates from the crown wheel (in reverse) the crush spacer crushed more and teeth ripped off. I replaced them with solid spacers about two years ago and have had no issues since. I'm sorry i cant supply any diagrams or smaller words, but it is my humble experience..... [/quote


x2

Trail gear do them http://www.trail-gear.com/toy-diff-setup.html

Sic Lux beat me with posting a link to the spacer kit. Never heard of custom machining one specific to your diff. That sounds really expensive.

had it done when i got 4.88 gears, all up cost gears, spacer,seals new clutches for lsd and labour cost me 1800 for front and rear

icrawl wrote:Dumbdunce, you are a very wise man and a knower of all things toyota, but I dont agree with you on this one. I have had two diffs fail and both because of the crush spacer. As the pinion seperates from the crown wheel (in reverse) the crush spacer crushed more and teeth ripped off. I replaced them with solid spacers about two years ago and have had no issues since. I'm sorry i cant supply any diagrams or smaller words, but it is my humble experience..... [/quote


x2

as the pinion separates from the crownwheel, the first obstacle is the pinion bearing. as it loads, the pinion shaft pushes forward into the housing, with the bearing cones of both bearings, and the spacer (solid or collapsible), which in turn unseats the front/flange bearing. at this point, the correct alignment of the gears is lost and breakage is imminent. For the spacer to fail, one or both of the bearings has to fail first. If a bearing fails, it will fail whether the spacer is collapsible or not.

I'm still willing to believe it if someone can show me bulletproof theory of why a solid spacer is 'stronger', but until then I'm sticking with my earlier assertion that you're wasting your money unless you think you're going to need to change seals regularly. That said, a decent seal on a good condition shaft should last well over 100,000km. If you are going to break diffs offroad, seal life isn't that much of an issue, so there really isn't any reason to fit a solid spacer at all.

Don't know if they do them for the larger cruiser diffs they may be a diffenent size will work in the hi pinion in the front but

Years ago the diffs from the 1978-84 Cruiser's 40's, 42's, 47's & 60's were the sort after ones ( fine pinion spline as the earlier ones were coarse spline and prone to failure ) you preloaded the bearings with shims against a shoulder on the pinion shaft. This is what i used for year's but eventually they become hard to get. I made up my first solid pinion spacer in about 1990 to use a later 60 diff centre that had the collaspsable sleeve. This was done as a time saving mod for Toyota when manufactured the diffs as the bearing did not have to be shimed and the nut tentioned to a predetermined torque to preload the pinion bearings. When assembling 1000's of diffs it saves a lot of time & $$$$$! What i did observe was that these diff's were prone to the pinion flange loosening up on the splines when the bearings wore and the assembly would become loose and allow the pinion to move about, leak oil and round off the pinion flange were it contacted the oil slinger/outer pinion bearing. I made the spacer to address this problem that improved the reliability. Due to the fact that the pinion does not loosen as easily ( all parts a tighened solidly ) this gives the pinion better support so the gears remain in better allignment/mesh and this in turn adds strength to the diff.
The main reason i custom machine this spacer is that i machine the spacer to the correct lenght to achieve the required preload on the bearings and use no shims as they are getting hard to get as no Toyota has used these shims for about 25 years.

Thats my 2$ worth and im convinced its worthwhile especially on higher HP applications

Wally

thanks wally do the early cruiser diff solid spacers fit the later model diffs close enough to shim them as this is what i was planning to do 'but not sure if can get the solid spacer to suit like you can for the early cruise diffs..

69mud wrote:thanks wally do the early cruiser diff solid spacers fit the later model diffs close enough to shim them as this is what i was planning to do 'but not sure if can get the solid spacer to suit like you can for the early cruise diffs..

Even thou the bearings have different bearing number betrween early and late the envelope sizes are exactly same ( the contact angle is different early diffs bearings take more axial load and less radial the post 90 diffs with the higher pinion have bearings suited to more radial load and less axial load ) and are spaced the same distance appart. The shape of the shafts slightly differ so you need to check to ensure the solid spacer is contacting the inner ( large ) bearing.

Wally

80UTE, with your solid spacer system, wouldn't they have to be made to suit the individual diff. Sort of, fit bearings, measure, make spacer to suit measured clearance then do final assembly... just asking not being critical.

RED60 wrote:80UTE, with your solid spacer system, wouldn't they have to be made to suit the individual diff. Sort of, fit bearings, measure, make spacer to suit measured clearance then do final assembly... just asking not being critical.

You sure do thats how i make them as it better this way but also a i previously posted the shims arnt that readily available any more !


Wally

spongerx wrote:Sic Lux beat me with posting a link to the spacer kit. Never heard of custom machining one specific to your diff. That sounds really expensive.

If im doing a diff overhaul with new bearings and the solid spacer i charge about $450 to disassemble the diff clean all parts replace all bearings/seal shim the pinion bearings with a custom made up solid spacer and set the gear mesh. If its a comp/high powered truck i set up the preload and mesh tighter but require's careful break in.

Wally

I'm having all the bearings replaced in my diff and axle assy (wheel, carrier, Pinion) as we speak and will be getting another solid spacer made up this time as well.

The last one I had made up was for the LSD which is still going in the car it's installed in now.

The fella who does the diffs has just bought a new 76 Troopy and is fitting a solid spacer in both ends and this has done less than 4000km.

He's been a Toyota Mechanic for over 40 years....

dumbdunce wrote:if someone is able to show me conclusively how a solid spacer in anyh way enhances the actual strength of a diff, I'll happily recant. I might even go make myself a set of collapsible spacers. You'll have to ue lots of diagrams and small words - I'm obviously not very bright

Still no diagrams I don't think Dumbdance will be convinced yet

The Fish wrote:

dumbdunce wrote:if someone is able to show me conclusively how a solid spacer in anyh way enhances the actual strength of a diff, I'll happily recant. I might even go make myself a set of collapsible spacers. You'll have to ue lots of diagrams and small words - I'm obviously not very bright

Still no diagrams I don't think Dumbdance will be convinced yet

no, I'm not   I do agree that as Wally said, the collapsible spacer makes the setup easier and faster, and that toyota probably went to the collapsible spacer to reduce manufacturing costs, but that's not necessarily evidence to suggest that either way is any stronger.

I have been working on my own theory that perhaps the torsional load on the pinion shaft in extreme loadings - could be in the region of 5kNm - induces sufficient torsional strain in the pinion shaft, with a corresponding reduction in length, which causes the bearing cones to move together towards each other - but without seeing any test data it's a pretty wild imagining.

We have been doing solid pinion spacers since the came out pretty much, to work as part of a total plan to make the diff as strong as it can be.

The solid pinion spacer, plus a stronger carrier, like the ARB locker prevent the crownwheel from being able to move away from the pinion, and vice versa, and when the solid pinion spacer is made [we make them 2 part with captive shim between, so anyone can machine the shim] it is important the solid pinion spacer covers the whoile face of the bearing, re inforcing the nib that holds the rollers in the bearing, as this becomes the next weak link in the chain, when a solid pinion spacer is fitted.

Now, if we see a diff faliure, its not the crownwheel and pinion flexing away from one another in the way they do wil collapsable spacer, but the hosuing is foirced apart enough the carrier bolts on the caps have broken, or stretched, and allowed the cap to come loose, but it takes serious abuse for this to happen, and normally the axle goes before the centre, unless it has the 4340 cromoly forged axles we have for cruiser.

We also drill the housing, and carrier, on cruier 80/105 front, and fit 10mm studs, to prevent flexing, and the 3-6 o clock oil leaks between the carrier and housing.

Solid spacers are alot of work to get right, cost $ to get done, but do it once, do it well, you shouldnt have to touch them again.

Got the Troopy back yesterday, had rear wheel bearings, axle seals, carrier bearings, pinion bearings, pinion flange all replaced and a solid spacer installed. All up cost $530.00, gotta be happy with that!!

Just thought i'd post up some pics of a blown diff that had a solid pinion spacer. Reason it blew was large v8 and big tyres, swisted the pinion shaft into bits. The pinion gear and crown wheel are fine though! only damage from them jamming together, the locker copped a few whacks though.