Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi there just wondering what people think would be the best option for modding my GQ, Obviously a turbo works for free all the time but at around $3500 ( please no " you can do it yourself easily for less " as I don't have the skills or time) whereas LPG seems to give great results plus better for the enviroment plus with the rebate it should only cost $2000 max. Very keen to hear form anyone with experience....from what I have read the vehicles usualy have a turbo before they are gassed.....tah

go the turbo then get gas

I believe that LPG is most useful when the car is turbocharged. The gains on NA enignes are a lot smaller from my understanding.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:I believe that LPG is most useful when the car is turbocharged. The gains on NA enignes are a lot smaller from my understanding.

Steve.

makes sence really, no point increasing fuel supply if there isnt any extra oxygen to burn with it.

anyone got expoerience with or with out turbos? maybe try a search as i read a post in the last month about something similar, and they discussed gains on their vehicles.

unless you go injected gas you'll loose power going to lpg.

vapour carbed lpg with a turbo is the best IMO, very simple and reliable too.

I think he was talking diesel LTD351T

Steve.

While i do agree that a turbo set up is the best addition first, it may be worthwhile to get the gas fumagation before they take the majority of the rebate away.

Snarba

Mate as a 4x4 mechanic that has installed turbo's and also the diesel gas systems,i can tell you that you are not wasting your money with either option,Obviosly the LPG systems works extremely well when combined with the turbo setup.

The turbo setup alone works well when combined with with a 3" open exhaust system and a few tickles with the fuel pump,this in turn = more fuel consumption.

The LPG system is not a new concept with diesels it has just been refined,There are alot of systems out there with some differances.
With the rebate you could get a LPG system for around $2000-2500.

Hope this helps you,if you have any other questions,shoot me a message and i'll see what i can do to help out..

Regards
Jamie

thanx everyone, can't seem to find any info on people gassing non turbo TD42 's guess I'll have to ring a few places and see if they have done this mod and go from there. It does make sence though about increasing the air flow ( turbo) but fuel consumption is the biggy these days...It's $1.80 a litre for diesel out here and its only gonna climb...I'll post any results

From what I've read on gassing non turbo's, (and I'm getting mine done as soon as the tank arrives).Yes, you get no more air into the system but the injected gas vapour makes a more complete burn of the injected diesel. More fuel burnt = more power.

Supposedly most older style diesels burn only about 70-75% of the injected diesel but after injecting gas vapour into the air inlet they then burn 95-98%.

This in turn means more power,cleaner oil and less / no black smoke out the back.

The D-Gas system I'm putting on mine guarantees a minimum of 15% power and fuel economy gains using 20% gas injection or your money back.

That sounds about right. LPG acts as a catalyst to improve the diesels burn. I've seen figures for about 26% power increase on a N/A 5L diesel on a Hilux.

Steve.

Adam GQ wrote:go the turbo then get gas

x 76

Troopy93 wrote:From what I've read on gassing non turbo's, (and I'm getting mine done as soon as the tank arrives).Yes, you get no more air into the system but the injected gas vapour makes a more complete burn of the injected diesel. More fuel burnt = more power.

Supposedly most older style diesels burn only about 70-75% of the injected diesel but after injecting gas vapour into the air inlet they then burn 95-98%.

I call bullshit.

There's no way your diesel is only burning 70-75% of it's fuel It'd be propelled by black smoke if that were true.
LPG is not a "catalyst" as a catalyst has to remain unchanged. The LPG is burnt as extra fuel, yes it acts as an accelerant to make the diesel burn faster, but it does that by pre-igniting (aka detonating) in the cylinders.
This great increase in injection timing is very hard on your engine.

Another point that is glossed over, extra fuel = extra heat. Adding LPG to an engine that is already running at it's max (as non turbo engines all are) can push your EGT's into meltdown.

id personally get the turbo first but pending on if u choose to get both. with the lpg atm u get the government re bait of 2000 in which i believe old rudd has chosen to scrap in the near future. to have a to have a turbo or lpg installed would cost around $3500 each so go with the lpg first so u can get the re bait then get the turbo

LTD351T wrote:unless you go injected gas you'll loose power going to lpg.

vapour carbed lpg with a turbo is the best IMO, very simple and reliable too.

Not so. Petrol and LPG are more explosive, volatile, and produce a bigger bang than diesel, hence more power, as the force driving the piston down is larger. It works very well on N/A engines particularly as the dynamic compression is lower in a N/A engine the substitution rate can be higher a 40% power increases is possible in an N/A engines. The limit to substitution of LPG is that LPG will compression ignite (pre ignite) if the quantity of LPG is too great, therefore the greater the compression the less LPG can be added, if the octane rating were higher, like CNG the amounts of Gas introduced could be greater as would the power output. The percentage gains are less on a turbo engine as you can't safely add as much LPG but 20% of an engine making 100 kw is better than 40% of an engine making 60 kw. LPG is LPG you won't go backwards, we were fitting simple mixers at Gasresearch to trucks over 10 years ago before it became trendy. It dosent matter how you administer it as long as the Air fuel ratios are correct, don't get power crazy and don't use LPG when the convereter is still cold as the rate of LPG introduced into the motor will be greater and could lead to engine damagine detonation. If you ever hear detonation remove some LPG before you find yourself building a new engine.

Joel

Double post

Troopy93 wrote: I didn't make the figures up, only going by whats detailed in most diesel/lpg sites, but there are a heap of diesels belching black smoke on highways everywhere when under load.

Supplier websites aren't a place to let the facts get in the way.

Diesels blow smoke when they don't have enough air to burn it cleanly. Adding more air (i.e. clean the air-filter) is the way to fix that. Not by displacing air with LPG.

It was Steve who called LPG a catalyst, he should know better.

Troopy93 wrote: As for n/a diesels always running at their max , where'd ya drag that out from?? So you reckon a 4.2 Patrol tootling up the highway at 2200 rpm is working at it's max.... on that I call BULLSHIT, Only when at full throttle under load.

Nice of you to miss the point, then argue back towards it.

Troopy93 wrote:
No increase in injection timing either as no extra diesel is being put into the motor only a whiff of gas is being injected into the intake air. 180ltrs of diesel is supplemented with 37 ltrs of gas.

The LPG pre-ignites and makes the diesel burn much sooner than it normally does.
This is the advance in timing.
Peak pressure occurs much sooner and peak forces are much higher.

double post

KiwiBacon wrote:

Troopy93 wrote: I didn't make the figures up, only going by whats detailed in most diesel/lpg sites, but there are a heap of diesels belching black smoke on highways everywhere when under load.

Supplier websites aren't a place to let the facts get in the way.

Diesels blow smoke when they don't have enough air to burn it cleanly. Adding more air (i.e. clean the air-filter) is the way to fix that. Not by displacing air with LPG.

It was Steve who called LPG a catalyst, he should know better.

Troopy93 wrote: As for n/a diesels always running at their max , where'd ya drag that out from?? So you reckon a 4.2 Patrol tootling up the highway at 2200 rpm is working at it's max.... on that I call BULLSHIT, Only when at full throttle under load.

Nice of you to miss the point, then argue back towards it.

Troopy93 wrote:
No increase in injection timing either as no extra diesel is being put into the motor only a whiff of gas is being injected into the intake air. 180ltrs of diesel is supplemented with 37 ltrs of gas.

The LPG pre-ignites and makes the diesel burn much sooner than it normally does.
This is the advance in timing.
Peak pressure occurs much sooner and peak forces are much higher.

I'm not about to start a shit fight but there are a great number of heavy industry vehicles over here running gas injection, also there are a lot more Interstate Haulage trucks getting the conversion done as well.

I'm sure these companys / operators have a lot more to lose than an individual 4x4 owner ,and would not be putting their vehicles and contracts at risk by adapting a system that's going to do terminal damage to their vehicles / reputations.

KiwiBacon wrote: It was Steve who called LPG a catalyst, he should know better.

Yep, fair call. I guess I got caught up in a lot of marketing propaganda from when these systems were launched, esp in the US.

Steve.

Troopy93 wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:

Troopy93 wrote: I didn't make the figures up, only going by whats detailed in most diesel/lpg sites, but there are a heap of diesels belching black smoke on highways everywhere when under load.

Supplier websites aren't a place to let the facts get in the way.

Diesels blow smoke when they don't have enough air to burn it cleanly. Adding more air (i.e. clean the air-filter) is the way to fix that. Not by displacing air with LPG.

It was Steve who called LPG a catalyst, he should know better.

Troopy93 wrote: As for n/a diesels always running at their max , where'd ya drag that out from?? So you reckon a 4.2 Patrol tootling up the highway at 2200 rpm is working at it's max.... on that I call BULLSHIT, Only when at full throttle under load.

Nice of you to miss the point, then argue back towards it.

Troopy93 wrote:
No increase in injection timing either as no extra diesel is being put into the motor only a whiff of gas is being injected into the intake air. 180ltrs of diesel is supplemented with 37 ltrs of gas.

The LPG pre-ignites and makes the diesel burn much sooner than it normally does.
This is the advance in timing.
Peak pressure occurs much sooner and peak forces are much higher.

I'm not about to start a shit fight but there are a great number of heavy industry vehicles over here running gas injection, also there are a lot more Interstate Haulage trucks getting the conversion done as well.

I'm sure these companys / operators have a lot more to lose than an individual 4x4 owner ,and would not be putting their vehicles and contracts at risk by adapting a system that's going to do terminal damage to their vehicles / reputations.

Don't worry Dougal, ol' mate is full of............wierd assumptions

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/sutra1384 ... t=#1384042

You want to spend less money getting stuff installed.

But are looking to add in an extra overall cost which is the LPG fuel, which in 2010 will have the taxes added to it, so don't think that it'll be staying at 80-90 cents forever which even then is pretty expensive seeing as we probably produce the worlds supply of LPG anyway or damn close to it.

I would think the turbo would be the better option if your really wanting to save money, be one hell of a way to burn cash like crazy, by installing LPG then having the 2 fuel costs then figuring you should have just gotten the turbo instead.

I can't see diesel staying up around $2 a pop, it'll come back down it's only the 0ppm of sulfer change in diesel, that would be making it cost so much at the moment.

even then $2 still isn't the highest I've seen diesel at I've seen it goto a straight $3 a litre in the late 90's this being metro areas as well. but I guess that was the change to 50ppm of diesel fuel.

Troopy93 wrote: I'm not about to start a shit fight but there are a great number of heavy industry vehicles over here running gas injection, also there are a lot more Interstate Haulage trucks getting the conversion done as well.

I'm sure these companys / operators have a lot more to lose than an individual 4x4 owner ,and would not be putting their vehicles and contracts at risk by adapting a system that's going to do terminal damage to their vehicles / reputations.

For a start all of those machines would instantly lose their manufacturers warranty. For virtually every industry I know of, that's a serious concern.

The diesel engine makers aren't stupid, if gas fumigation of diesels was a safe practise with the benefits claimed, they'd all be using it.
But instead, absolutely none of them use it. Not one. Does that tell you anything?

adamj1300 wrote:id personally get the turbo first but pending on if u choose to get both. with the lpg atm u get the government re bait of 2000 in which i believe old rudd has chosen to scrap in the near future. to have a to have a turbo or lpg installed would cost around $3500 each so go with the lpg first so u can get the re bait then get the turbo

I was on the phone to Torque Gas in Caloundra, QLD. They mentioned that "Rudd" has extended the rebate till at least 2014.

Looks like I will Prolly go Gas as well as a set of extractors and new system to suit.

dano80 wrote:

adamj1300 wrote:id personally get the turbo first but pending on if u choose to get both. with the lpg atm u get the government re bait of 2000 in which i believe old rudd has chosen to scrap in the near future. to have a to have a turbo or lpg installed would cost around $3500 each so go with the lpg first so u can get the re bait then get the turbo

I was on the phone to Torque Gas in Caloundra, QLD. They mentioned that "Rudd" has extended the rebate till at least 2014.

Looks like I will Prolly go Gas as well as a set of extractors and new system to suit.

that's the rebate not the excise on LPG, you can look around the ATO site for the tax rates etc, I did see a page saying on july 1st 2008 LPG will have 2.5% excise added.

I just can't find a page which says what is happening with it just bits of stuff.

like Diesel has a 0.38147 tax added per litre.

though pure crude oil has no taxes at all, if produced in Australia.

An overview of excise on fuel ethanol
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /52768.htm

this is all I could find.

These are the current excise charged on different fuels.


These are the current and in-coming excise charges on different fuels.



These may have been changed but these have also been set back in 2003 budget.

The first picture is the current excise/tax per litre, so diesel has 0.38143 cents added on top of what ever the current price is.

lol, it's a good thing they take it to the billionth... because you wouldn't want to be under charged on taxes.


And ruddy extending the rebate seems to be BS that was extended back in 2003 budget as well.

additional assistance would be provided for the LPG sector (through a $1000 subsidy starting 1 July 2011 and concluding 30 June 2014 for purchases of dedicated or dual fuel LPG vehicles delivered new) to assist its transition into the excise net

This is coming from this PDF http://www.aip.com.au/pdf/fuel_excise_reform.pdf

zagan wrote:

dano80 wrote:

adamj1300 wrote:id personally get the turbo first but pending on if u choose to get both. with the lpg atm u get the government re bait of 2000 in which i believe old rudd has chosen to scrap in the near future. to have a to have a turbo or lpg installed would cost around $3500 each so go with the lpg first so u can get the re bait then get the turbo

I was on the phone to Torque Gas in Caloundra, QLD. They mentioned that "Rudd" has extended the rebate till at least 2014.

Looks like I will Prolly go Gas as well as a set of extractors and new system to suit.

that's the rebate not the excise on LPG, you can look around the ATO site for the tax rates etc, I did see a page saying on july 1st 2008 LPG will have 2.5% excise added.

I just can't find a page which says what is happening with it just bits of stuff.

like Diesel has a 0.38147 tax added per litre.

though pure crude oil has no taxes at all, if produced in Australia.

An overview of excise on fuel ethanol
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /52768.htm

Correct!

I never mentioned anything about any excise or the like. Was talk purely on the rebates and when they ended.

Dano.