Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi all

Shane from 4wdstuff has supplied me with some 3" lift flexi coils to replace my current 2" and 1" spacers.

Got the back pair installed this morning with new spring retainers at the bottom.

My new back shocks (GQ bilsteins) did not arrive yesterday so I have to wait until early next week to fit new shocks to the back and front (80 series).

Issues so far are only the exhaust. As you can see it hits the A arm. So off to exhaust shop on Tuesday. Will have picks of the front spring install either this afternoon or tomorrow.


New springs are about 50mm longer than the originals plus the 1" spacer!


Installed with new bottom spring retainer (5mm steel plate)


A Arm touching exhaust at slight flex...needs to be fixed ASAP!


End result for the rears...slighty higher then before, but that is good. There is a fair bit of weight in the rear with 33" spare, steel bar, 80 litre Waeco, 60 litre water tank...and that's without camping gear!


More photos soon

Andrew

i would like to know what lengths the gq and 80 series shocks are extended and compressed, do you have to use eye to pin adapters ( are they a off the shelf shock)(2" or 3" lift for those vehicles) has the valving been changed for your rr. Also if you have any vibs in the front end. thanks

I will have be getting pin to eye adapters for the rear shocks (GQ).

80 series front are pin to pin like the Rangie.

Open and compressed sizes are available on the Les Richmond automotive website, but I think it is down at the moment.

I can measure for you once I get them.

The valving is suited to a diesel 80 series and GQ which are similar weighted vehicles to my Rangie.

Cheers

Andrew

that looks to be alot more than 3" lift...

also that lower spring retainer is goin to fatigue that part of the spring as it will be forced to bend at that point, its probably not so important but, is there a way to twist the spring to allow more space between the lower retainer and the coil above it (at both ends of the retainer ofcourse) ?

Hi Guys

I just noticed this interesting thread. For those who don't know I have supplied these coils to Andrew for testing. These are the first 3" lift flexi coils to come off the production line. (Thank you Andrew for being the Guinea Pig). I do expect perfection first go but I wouldn't be surprised if I have to adjust the spring design.

These coils are the extra heavy duty version to suit all the weight that Andrew has or is planning. They will settle a bit after Andrew gives them a flogging in the bush.

Most guys would get the normal duty flexi rears which I have in stock now if someone wants to be a Guinea Pig for these.

I have Procomp shocks in stock to suit up to a 27.5" rears and I just sold out of the 29.5" rears (More coming soon). If you can tie these coils in well then I recommend you go all out and get the 29.5" rears which measure 745mm to 450mm ( For those who don't know, the normal 2" lift shocks are 555mm extended)

In about 6 weeks adjustable shocks will be available up to 800mm long with the right ends to suit the Rangie front and rear. I recommend you move shock mounts for shocks this long.

I also have Disco Series 2 3" lift Flexi coils. At the moment I don't have many sets because they are still in the testing phase. Adjustable shocks for these will be available at a later date.

I haven't supplied Andrew with the Bilsteins shocks because he already had these sorted but I also supply these shocks. They would be about 650mm extended eye to eye. You then add about 20mm extra for the pin to eye conversion. Compressed I can only guess you would be looking at 425mm. Don't forget to add 20mm for the pin to eye conversion. I ran shocks this length on my 2" lift normal coils that were tied in. Andrew is being conservative with these shocks but if he wants Bilsteins he doesn't have many choices.

I wouldn't have decided to post these coils up this early in the testing phase but here we are so lets enjoy the ride.

Thanks again Andrew for being a Guinea Pig with a new design.

Shane

Hi Shane,

I spoke to you a while ago about my Rangie, i have had hold ups with the sparky doing the wiring, but hopefully things will start to move soon...

What rate are you normal flexi rears, i currently have a 4" lift and 2" body lift running 35's but i have been thinking about dropping the height slightly, so your 3" springs could be the go.

My four door has had the interior removed, no rear seats, but 140ltr LPG tank installed, see pic..



So i,m after softer coils, not harder, won't be doing much towing (other than Nissans out of Bog Holes )

Cheers

Steve

You can't show your Rangie on the back of a tow truck.

I'm not sure what the spring rate is because it is hard to calculate on a variable coil. One day I might work it out but for now I will be asking my customers for feedback and over time this will be more accurate then some numbers.

The normal 3" lift flexi rears would suit you.

Shane

what about front shocks, how long can you go before bottoming out on 3" coils.
or can you put taller front shock towers in to get longer shocks( more travel).
shane when you measure shocks is it from very end of pin or where the first washer goes on the pin.
will you get vibs from a 3" kit

more pics

Here is the passenger side front nearly completed...I have retainer plates for the front, but I just need to shape them a little more as they are just touching the shock.





Will get the rest finished tomorrow and wheels back on.

The standard shocks shown in the pics are about 2" short.

Big thanks to Shane...Once the new shocks go in and exhaust is fixed, I will be ready to test - hopefully next weekend

Grimace...will just have to wait and see. I tried to position the plate in the optimum position.

I also have to retain the top of each coil...still in design mode for that.

Cheers
Andrew

4WD Stuff wrote:<snip>
I'm not sure what the spring rate is because it is hard to calculate on a variable coil. One day I might work it out
<snip>
Shane

Shane, work it out for the complete spring, (total number of coils, less the closed and ground ends, ie. 1.75 turns) then re-calculate for when the closely pitched end is coil bound (only use the then active coils)

This should then give you your soft and hard rates.

What I used to do years ago to check rates was borrow a mates electronic corner weight scales and stick the spring and one pad in a press or drill press and compress and measure.

rick130 wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote:<snip>
I'm not sure what the spring rate is because it is hard to calculate on a variable coil. One day I might work it out
<snip>
Shane

Shane, work it out for the complete spring, (total number of coils, less the closed and ground ends, ie. 1.75 turns) then re-calculate for when the closely pitched end is coil bound (only use the then active coils)

This should then give you your soft and hard rates.

What I used to do years ago to check rates was borrow a mates electronic corner weight scales and stick the spring and one pad in a press or drill press and compress and measure.

I'm not sure how relevant the spring rate would be for the total coil because the closely pitched turns should be bound up all the time except for when the vehicle is flexed up. However when hitting a bump in the road I suspect that the tight turns or part of them do make for a softer ride. When people quote variable coil spring rates there can be such a big difference between the soft measurement and firm measurement.

What I plan to do over time is get feedback from people who have got a linear coil with a specific spring rate and then get them to tell me if the flexi coil feels softer or firmer. This way I can tell people that it feels like a particular spring rate. (Not very scientific but a more real life comparison.) Having said that, I may decide to get them measured correctly and abandoned what I just said.

advdisco1 wrote: what about front shocks, how long can you go before bottoming out on 3" coils.or can you put taller front shock towers in to get longer shocks( more travel).

I think this question might be worded a bit wrong. The longer the shock the less likely you are to bottom out the coil.

Bottoming out the shock has more to do with your bump stops I think A Landcruiser front shock which is 610mm extended and about 370 mm compressed is as long as you can go before you modify bump stops or spring towers. Even with these shocks I would double check. When I had my Rangie I threw in the front shocks and just drove it. My 33 inch tyres seemed to scrub before the shocks over compressed but they rarely scrubbed. I did not have a body lift.

advdisco1 wrote: shane when you measure shocks is it from very end of pin or where the first washer goes on the pin.
will you get vibs from a 3" kit

Measurements are taken from base of pin to base of pin. Someone else will be better qualified to talk about vibes.

My d1 has 2.5+ lift and shocks are 620mm/24.5"
mounted to standard points. I have dislocation cones
in the rear(only dislocates about 1.5" on ramps).
Front coils are in position firmly at full druep, but if i
hit a pot hole at medium speed i think the front shocks
bottom out. I have standard bump stops too.

I think the rear shocks could be longer to get more
travel but the front would need taller shock towers
to get longer shocks without bottoming them out.
I think.

4WD Stuff wrote:[<snip>

Bottoming out the shock has more to do with your bump stops I think A Landcruiser front shock which is 610mm extended and about 370 mm compressed is as long as you can go before you modify bump stops or spring towers. Even with these shocks I would double check.
<snip>.

At 370mm closed, you will go metal to metal in the shock, which is nasty and usually means a throw away.
The bump stops compress over 20mm, so you have to allow for that.
I run dampers that go 370 closed, and I've had to play with pin rubbers and raise the towers to prevent damage, which happened twice.
Luckily I could rebuild the shocks, but they were pretty stuffed internally.

rick130 wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote:[<snip>

Bottoming out the shock has more to do with your bump stops I think A Landcruiser front shock which is 610mm extended and about 370 mm compressed is as long as you can go before you modify bump stops or spring towers. Even with these shocks I would double check.
<snip>.

At 370mm closed, you will go metal to metal in the shock, which is nasty and usually means a throw away.
The bump stops compress over 20mm, so you have to allow for that.
I run dampers that go 370 closed, and I've had to play with pin rubbers and raise the towers to prevent damage, which happened twice.
Luckily I could rebuild the shocks, but they were pretty stuffed internally.

It sounds like you should know. As I said I just threw my shocks on and drove it with no probs not to say that it was a problem waiting to happen.

For everyone's benefit how much do you have to raise the shock towers.
If someone wants to test it, just take your front coils out and let it down onto its bump stops and measure between shock mounts. This is the compressed length limit.
If someone can do the same for the rear that would be helpful for all also.

This is something you want to get right otherwise rebuilding stuffed Bilsteins becomes expensive.

Shane

You may get away with it on Billies, I suspect the top of the shaft hitting the top cap/seal assy limits travel rather than anything internal, but you definitely won't on Koni's as the rebound adjuster nut crashes into the foot valve at full bump and stuffs the adjuster and the foot valve, and often the bottom of the pressure tube too.

I used half thickness urethane bushes on the body side of both pins and raised the towers 6mm and this has been sufficient to prevent any further damage.

rick130 wrote:You may get away with it on Billies, I suspect the top of the shaft hitting the top cap/seal assy limits travel rather than anything internal, but you definitely won't on Koni's as the rebound adjuster nut crashes into the foot valve at full bump and stuffs the adjuster and the foot valve, and often the bottom of the pressure tube too.

I used half thickness urethane bushes on the body side of both pins and raised the towers 6mm and this has been sufficient to prevent any further damage.

So 20mm roughtly for Koni's what is the compressed length of the Koni's, base of pin to base of pin?

Shane

82-2385 (TLC 80Series)

370mm closed
617mm open.

Hi Shane,

The way you suggest to measure min shock length isn't right. The bumpstops are slightly inboard of the shocks and you can easily have a situation where one side of the diff is on max droop (a lot with longer shocks) and one side is fully compressed.

The min length will be less than what is measured with both coils out. Not a lot, but enough to trash some shocks. Needs to be measured with one side on the bumpstop, while the other side is on max droop.

Learnt this the hard way, and have also had the prob of trashing shocks topping out due to a 'radical' 2" spring lift.

HTH, DL

DL wrote:Hi Shane,

The way you suggest to measure min shock length isn't right. The bumpstops are slightly inboard of the shocks and you can easily have a situation where one side of the diff is on max droop (a lot with longer shocks) and one side is fully compressed.

The min length will be less than what is measured with both coils out. Not a lot, but enough to trash some shocks. Needs to be measured with one side on the bumpstop, while the other side is on max droop.

Learnt this the hard way, and have also had the prob of trashing shocks topping out due to a 'radical' 2" spring lift.

HTH, DL

Good point, do you have a measurement of the maximum compressed length a shock can be with stock bump stops?
So far the best guess is about 350mm, 20mm less then a Landcruiser shock.

So pull out 1 coil and drop it on its bump stop and measure.

Shane

Found this the other night whilst doing a searh.

standard rover fronts 21.5"-12.9"=8.6"
rears 21.7"-13.8"=7.9"

lra specials fronts 25.5"-15.0"=10.6"
rears 25.7"-15.6"=10.4"

procomp 926560 fronts 25.8"-15.4"=10.4"
926573 rears 26.8"-16.4"=10.4"

I have OE Def 130 shocks as
550mm open
328mm closed for the fronts,

550mm open
350mm closed for the rears.

Good selection of shock lengths here http://members.shaw.ca/red90/shockinfo.html

The shocks I will be using are:

Front (80 series Bilsteins)
Open 585mm
Closed 375mm
measured from base of pin to base of pin

Rear (GQ Bilsteins - pin to eye adapter required)
Open 664mm
Closed 416mm
measured from base of pin to centre of eye. Also need to include additional 40mm for adapter

No new photos of the fronts. First set of springs that I installed turned out about 30mm to short. I have another set to go in hopefully tomorrow.

Cheers
Andrew

4WD Stuff wrote:
I also have Disco Series 2 3" lift Flexi coils. At the moment I don't have many sets because they are still in the testing phase. Adjustable shocks for these will be available at a later date.

G'day Shane, George here. I'm looking forward to testing out those D2 coils when there ready.

I wait with baited breath

Keep me posted

Cheers

George.

Red Disco wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote:
I also have Disco Series 2 3" lift Flexi coils. At the moment I don't have many sets because they are still in the testing phase. Adjustable shocks for these will be available at a later date.

G'day Shane, George here. I'm looking forward to testing out those D2 coils when there ready.

I wait with baited breath

Keep me posted

Cheers

George.

I am looking forward to getting them also, sorry about the delay. The rear coils are actually the same as what Andrew has but you are getting flexy coils up front. I spoke with Andrew today and he is happy with how it sits and also how it rides front and rear.
You guys are pioneers with a new breed of coils.

GO QUEENSLAND

for guys that are worried about bottoming out shocks instead of bumpstops, bill showed me a trick years ago.
it involved fully extending the shock and running a texta mark around the body.
then fully compress the shock and run a texta mark around the body.
follow this with measuring the middle point and running a mark around again
make note of the travel.
once the shock was mounted this gave me a definitive point for measurement
i have found this method quite handy for calculating turret spacers
david.
ps not that handy if you cut the shroud off , but then you use the cable tie method.

[/quote]I am looking forward to getting them also, sorry about the delay.

GO QUEENSLAND[/quote]

The delay is not a problem as the customer service and communication has been top notch so far.

It's just a shame NSW lost the footy..

Cheers

George.