Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey all

i need to try and get a hold of some plumbing to fit a PWR water to air intercooler to a 1hz with ct26 turbo on it. I called Denco and they weren't prepared to sell me the two castings separate to a complete kit. (crunts!! , it's their kit they can if they wanted to. I suspect that it's just too hard basket for them or they want me to buy a whole kit. well fark em, they could have sold them to me at any price and i would have paid it to save the hassle, now they're gonna get nothing)

Basically i need a bend similar to the ones in these pics to go from turbo up to the cooler, then a modified intake casting to go from cooler to intake manifold.

http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm10 ... H%20Turbo/

any suggestions would be helpful as i don't really want to go the way of a custom made pipe (can you say big dollars?)

Custom made out of alloy shouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred bucks mate.

yeah, just trying to avoid the hassle of getting it down to the fabricators with the existing plumbing off then leaving it with them for a day or two.

we made ours from a cutdown non turbo model 80 series/ 1hz intake manifold extension pipe. it only cost $10 to get it welded up.

they will not sell it as they want you to buy a full kit and do not like to help anyone with a used kit as we also found out.

cheers mark

New to this forum I have a set of denco inlet pipes as I bought a PWR cooler only to find, that if you go by the PWR flow specs on the biggest that will fit under the bonnet (same size that denco use) you will find that your engine will choke up after 3000RPM EGT,s will sky rocket boost at manifold will drop off significantly (my experiance is on my 1HD-FT nobody makes anything for this engine) then I found a Guy who had removed his denco for the same reason as above bought his whole kit and joined the two together have all the left over bits...... just curious is the turbo off a 1HD-FT? or FTE how does it go on your 1HZ I have removed mine and put a garrett ballbearing on mine and was going to fit the CT 26 onto my mates 1HZ
I have not got any pictures of mine with me but this is a link with pictures of my old rocket
http://www.teamgreenautogas.com.au/defa ... tr%20Turbo

recon this might help...... helped me out fitting a custom water to air to my 3B

http://www.are.com.au/products/Aluminium%20Bends.htm

Hi Mr Duck, so you are saying that the denco intercooler (same as PWR) is not good enough for the 4.2L 1HZ or 1HDT? Chokes at 3000rpm? Is anyone having this problem with the denco intercooler?

I am looking to install this intercooler and want to make sure it will work well enough.

Thanks

Louis

lshobie wrote:Hi Mr Duck, so you are saying that the denco intercooler (same as PWR) is not good enough for the 4.2L 1HZ or 1HDT? Chokes at 3000rpm? Is anyone having this problem with the denco intercooler?

I am looking to install this intercooler and want to make sure it will work well enough.

Thanks

Louis

have a mate of mine with a denco kit fitted to his 80 series 1HDT... have diven it and he uses it quiet abit... no problems at all, with a noticable gain and increase too

In my experiance yes,...... if you check out the PWR web site (they supply denco with liquid to air coolers) and calculate the air flow required at 14 psi for a 4.2 Litre 4 stroke engine at 4000 rpm you should find that the rated CFM of that cooler equates to the above engine at about 3000 rpm
tried one single PWR on my 1HDFT and found that compared to a straight peice of pipe the boost pressure would drop from 12 psi at 2800 rpm down to about 5 psi at 4000 rpm at the intake manifold subsequently the exhaust temp would rise quite rapidly....however if you never rev past 3000 (mine is an auto so if you floor it you will frequently see 3500-4000)or you are running significantly less boost you could probably get away with it but without a pyro you dont realy know whats happening

I had intentions of going much further with mine so 1 was not adequate for me with a bit of stuffing around joined 2 together plenty of room for more grunt now
original HP at rear wheels was 112 (yawn)
LPG took it to 132
some more stuffing around.......
last dyno was 140 diesel and 155 diesel & gas
more stuffing around goes better still needs retune of gas before next dyno run (not to bad to drive now for a BUS!!)

How are you doing your calculations Mr. Duck?

A quick rap on the calculator gave me 8000l/min (~280 CFM) @ 4000rpm for a 4 liter engine. (shouldn't have needed a calculator for that ) The PWR specs i have suggest the smallest cooler (4x6" barrel) will flow 390CFM.

...it's late - what am i missing

Not suggesting your experiences are false, just curious as i've just ordered a PWR 4x6" kit myself.

As an aside, i don't understand how the 4x6" barrel flows 270hp, where 4x8" barrel flows 290hp (PWR's specs). Max flow, in theory, should be exactly the same. I suppose the 8" isn't just longer - it must have differences in the internal configuration. Or they're assuming certain test conditions which haven't been published...

Hi dogbreath,
If we work on 14.7 psi then this is equal to 2 atmospheres there fore effectively doubling the air flow through the engine assuming 100% efficiency so a…. 4Litre 4stroke equates to 2Litres per revolution x 4000 as you have already pointed out, at 2 atmospheres x efficiency (say .85 as a wild guess) 2x4000x2x.85= 13600 l/min = 480 CFM
As for the HP increase on a longer cooler I can only assume that it can cool the air more in the longer coolers? Extra 30 HP for an extra 4 inches possible…. stuffed if I know
Just another point that I found interesting while sourcing a new turbo for my bus was that pretty much all HP ratings are related to petrol engines, this will not equate to diesel HP, not because of the fuel (diesel actually has more energy than petrol) but the air required to burn the fuel, petrol requires air fuel ratio of around 14.7:1 while diesel requires around 22:1 (low smoke non melting of engine components) approx 150% more air than a petrol…. well I found it interesting anyway.

Please feel free to correct me on any of my calculations / theory’s I am by no means any sort of expert!!

MR Duck wrote:Please feel free to correct me on any of my calculations / theory’s I am by no means any sort of expert!!

One atmosphere is equal to 14.7 psi or so....not two...so the crm is halved to 240...

I just wonder how the comp guys are pushing 20 PSI with the 1HZ turbo with denco barrel type intercoolers if they are all choked up - they are reving over 4000 rpm I am sure.

I'm not sure i understand the way manufacturers have rated their product.

Not sure how the cooling effect of the longer cooler would increase it's HP rating's unless they gave us a specific set of test conditions to go with the ratings.

Also, isn't 1 cubic foot of air at 0psi (gauge) the same volume as 1 cubic foot of air at 14psi (gauge)? (mass obviously increasing - but we're talking about volume flow rate not mass flow rate)
Viscosity of air doesn't change any substantial amount under these condition either.

Either way, with 155kw @ the wheel's you're well and truly pushing the manufacturers HP ratings anyway!

I have an air/air intercooler now running 15 psi and 36 inch tires, I'm going to try the PWR barrel type to see how it works. I also plan on porting and polishing the head while I'm at it. I'll report back when it's done.

dumbdunce needs to reply to this thred

dogbreath_48 wrote:How are you doing your calculations Mr. Duck?

A quick rap on the calculator gave me 8000l/min (~280 CFM) @ 4000rpm for a 4 liter engine. (shouldn't have needed a calculator for that ) The PWR specs i have suggest the smallest cooler (4x6" barrel) will flow 390CFM.

...it's late - what am i missing

Not suggesting your experiences are false, just curious as i've just ordered a PWR 4x6" kit myself.

As an aside, i don't understand how the 4x6" barrel flows 270hp, where 4x8" barrel flows 290hp (PWR's specs). Max flow, in theory, should be exactly the same. I suppose the 8" isn't just longer - it must have differences in the internal configuration. Or they're assuming certain test conditions which haven't been published...

The longer the cooler, the larger the restriction....like blowing through a straw vs blowing through two...or if you want to make it closer to the actual, cut an inch off the straw, and it will be easier to blow...
The most efficient intercooler is one with short runners and penty of them, vs long rubbers and less...

dow50r wrote:

MR Duck wrote:Please feel free to correct me on any of my calculations / theory’s I am by no means any sort of expert!!

One atmosphere is equal to 14.7 psi or so....not two...so the crm is halved to 240...

Sorry should have said 14.7 gauge pressure

lshobie wrote:I just wonder how the comp guys are pushing 20 PSI with the 1HZ turbo with denco barrel type intercoolers if they are all choked up - they are reving over 4000 rpm I am sure.

Is that 20psi at the turbo compressor outlet or the intake manifold after the cooler?
If at turbo then the differential across the cooler might still allow enough air for top end ?

dogbreath_48 wrote:I'm not sure i understand the way manufacturers have rated their product.

Not sure how the cooling effect of the longer cooler would increase it's HP rating's unless they gave us a specific set of test conditions to go with the ratings.

Also, isn't 1 cubic foot of air at 0psi (gauge) the same volume as 1 cubic foot of air at 14psi (gauge)? (mass obviously increasing - but we're talking about volume flow rate not mass flow rate)
Viscosity of air doesn't change any substantial amount under these condition either.

Either way, with 155kw @ the wheel's you're well and truly pushing the manufacturers HP ratings anyway!

Increase air density by cooling = Increase of HP potential?

This is a very valid point that makes my theory of what occurred on my engine harder to explain, the pressure increase will increase the density and increase the friction through the cooler however as you point out not that much? A mate is going to do a computer model of gas flow through a heat exchanger for me will post the results when done.

I wish it was 155kw at the wheels only 155+HP

lshobie wrote:I have an air/air intercooler now running 15 psi and 36 inch tires, I'm going to try the PWR barrel type to see how it works. I also plan on porting and polishing the head while I'm at it. I'll report back when it's done.

Can you post the differential across the liquid / air cooler @ 4000 or pressure before and after the cooler so we can compare after you fit it?

I have 22PSI gauge before and 20PSI gauge after at 4100 RPM intake air temp after cooler working hard will get to about 75c-80c, High way about 8 psi negligible DP and 55c-60c, as mentioned earlier with one PWR & one Denco joined together side by side in parallel.
Do you know what DP you have got with the air/air?

Still happy to be corrected on anything I have written!!
I am still trying to nut all this out too!

Sorry milo seem to have taken over your thread give me a call and I will send you the two castings.

Not a drama mate. i'm as interested in this as you are. Turbo diesels are the horn and the more i find out about them the more i want to know. I'll never own another spark plug car again.

I don't count my motorbike in that category though

lshobie wrote:I have an air/air intercooler now running 15 psi and 36 inch tires, I'm going to try the PWR barrel type to see how it works. I also plan on porting and polishing the head while I'm at it. I'll report back when it's done.

I'm VERY interested to see how polishing the 1HZ head performs. Although i'd prefer to see empirical before and after results with no other mods peformed at the same time.

MR Duck wrote:New to this forum I have a set of denco inlet pipes as I bought a PWR cooler only to find, that if you go by the PWR flow specs on the biggest that will fit under the bonnet (same size that denco use) you will find that your engine will choke up after 3000RPM EGT,s will sky rocket boost at manifold will drop off significantly (my experiance is on my 1HD-FT nobody makes anything for this engine) then I found a Guy who had removed his denco for the same reason as above bought his whole kit and joined the two together have all the left over bits...... just curious is the turbo off a 1HD-FT? or FTE how does it go on your 1HZ I have removed mine and put a garrett ballbearing on mine and was going to fit the CT 26 onto my mates 1HZ
I have not got any pictures of mine with me but this is a link with pictures of my old rocket
http://www.teamgreenautogas.com.au/defa ... tr%20Turbo

Is that gas tank shaped like a donut or are my eyes playing tricks on me..

How much did they sting you for the gas setup?

whiteknight wrote:

MR Duck wrote:New to this forum I have a set of denco inlet pipes as I bought a PWR cooler only to find, that if you go by the PWR flow specs on the biggest that will fit under the bonnet (same size that denco use) you will find that your engine will choke up after 3000RPM EGT,s will sky rocket boost at manifold will drop off significantly (my experiance is on my 1HD-FT nobody makes anything for this engine) then I found a Guy who had removed his denco for the same reason as above bought his whole kit and joined the two together have all the left over bits...... just curious is the turbo off a 1HD-FT? or FTE how does it go on your 1HZ I have removed mine and put a garrett ballbearing on mine and was going to fit the CT 26 onto my mates 1HZ
I have not got any pictures of mine with me but this is a link with pictures of my old rocket
http://www.teamgreenautogas.com.au/defa ... tr%20Turbo

Is that gas tank shaped like a donut or are my eyes playing tricks on me..

How much did they sting you for the gas setup?

Yes it is a donut tank, not real happy with the tank set up hangs a bit low and would like more gas on board as well
Have a Propane Performance Industries Tank ordered wont be here before October though, will post some pics when done
Should be able to fit in same spot hold nearly twice as much gas and only hang down as much as the weld around the middle of the donut!
These tanks will make fitting gas systems to most vehicles far more user friendly, fairly new to Aus pretty much un heard of but will no doubt be very popular IMO recently approved for Aus already marketed in USA & New Zealand Check them out if you are curious http://www.propaneperformance.com/

As for gas fitting price there are cheaper around, are they better or worse who knows?
Give them a ring, as there are more and more gas fitters doing diesels so I guess the price will come down with competition eventually
The PPI guys are working on a low pressure reg inside the tank so you can get rid of half the stuff under the bonnet just have low pressure line shut off valve and injectors no plumbing into coolant wont be around for another year though.