Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Any one have an tech opinion?

Ta Bazzle

I always thought, without looking into it much, that wide band is necessary for tuning a non-standard setup such as a modified ECU etc, but not really worthwhile in a standard arrangement where the approximate levels are already known... but I could be wrong.

They perform different purposes. A narrow band cannot be used for tuning only for maintaining a very small window of mixture control around 14.7:1 AFR. A wide band, depending on the software, is used for tuning and does intergrate into some aftermarket ECU's , they can read between 10:1 and 20:1 AFR depending on the software and type of sensor, 4 wire 5 wire etc.

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:They perform different purposes. A narrow band cannot be used for tuning only for maintaining a very small window of mixture control around 14.7:1 AFR. A wide band, depending on the software, is used for tuning and does intergrate into some aftermarket ECU's , they can read between 10:1 and 20:1 AFR depending on the software and type of sensor, 4 wire 5 wire etc.

Joel

This is (essentially) as I understand the difference.

A narrow band isn't as "accurate" as a wideband, and can only really indicate above or below the "ideal" ratio - the voltage reading does not translate accurately enough to an AFR number.

A wideband sensor has a much more linear response, and it's possible to translate the voltage output to an AFR number with an acceptable accuracy - so a performance tuner can program different AFR targets for different combinations of throttle and load.

Or I could be completely wrong.

remove the "accurate" part Scott and tour spot on - both can be very accurate.

Narrowband are used more on older systems with more modern using wideband. - Wideband are not just used by tuners they are now standard fittment on many vehicles.

Avoid the cheap an nasty Jaycar style kits - their cheapest uses a narrowband sensor and tries to intrepret dat from the flanks of the sensor output. This is dumb as its not an area that's calibrated of consistent between sensors.

There more expensive kit is also no worth having as its uses a older "wider.." band sensor thats expesnsive and not temperature corrected - which makes it useless.

For my money buy a commercial later wideband system - not much dearer and a professional tool.

So is it possible to buy a wide band sensor and hook it up to something (ie multimeter) and read outputs? I have been playing around with a narrow band oxy sensor and my gq just to see what its at.

James

There are plenty of kits that allow you to datalog and view AFR on a gauge or laptop, I know the multimeter is cheaper but not all output the same voltage for a given AFR, you would need to know the fomula that matches the sensor. They also have smart heaters with feedback on late 5 wire widebands to maintain optimum temperature that you would struggle to duplicate witout software switching the heaters.

On a scale its like this.

10:1-----------------------14.4:1-------15.1:1-----------------------20:1

The wideband covers the whole range from 10:1 to 20:1 (this varies with types and software) and the narrow 14.4 to 15.1, so the scope of the wide band is much broader.

It's rarely I would go beyond 16:1 or 11:1 either rich or lean though.

I have an Wideband Commander and a Innovative wideband as well as the one permanently attached to the chassis dyno.

I wouldn't say widebands are standard just yet on OE vehicles but as far as narrow band sensors go the later 4 wire type with heaters and alike are better as they warm up quicker and maintain the correct operating temperature more efficiently.

Can u get anything cheap.....just for home use and playing around?

Your not going to have sucess with a multimeter on a current wideband sensor, they require PID control of the heater and you need to convert the IPX output to Lambda via a lookup table. Theres also the requirement for calibration ( usually clean air ) and a whole picle of calculations isn't going to make a multimeter very attractive.

And..... define cheap !

Wideband systems are reasonably complex to design so if yor talking about $50 - then not going to happen.......

As for whats standard currently, I agree that there are still plenty of narrow band being used, but to meet current emmission requirements wideband are the norm. Its also reflected in the sales of sensor types to the OEM's.....

MightyMouse wrote:Your not going to have sucess with a multimeter on a current wideband sensor, they require PID control of the heater and you need to convert the IPX output to Lambda via a lookup table. Theres also the requirement for calibration ( usually clean air ) and a whole picle of calculations isn't going to make a multimeter very attractive.

And..... define cheap !

Wideband systems are reasonably complex to design so if yor talking about $50 - then not going to happen.......

As for whats standard currently, I agree that there are still plenty of narrow band being used, but to meet current emmission requirements wideband are the norm. Its also reflected in the sales of sensor types to the OEM's.....

Isn't that what I said, heater, voltage???

I'd be interested to know what OEM's are using them as it might make them a bit cheaper to buy as replacement ones if I knew which vehicles they came off.

Cheers

Joel

So what else can they be hooked up to?

I was more responding to Jimbo that you PGS 4WD.

Bosch LSU wideband sensor is the one I usually use although I have used NTK. I suppose $120+ would be list for a LSU - but I get them at cost so I'm guessing a little based on discount levels etc.

Jimbo do a web search, you'll find literally dozens. Have used just quite a few and they all were pretty close. Have built a few of the Tech Edge ( Australian ) units from kits and have no complaints. Colleagues also have them with like results. ( Look for their web site ).

Once you get past the Jaycar kit level the differences between units is generally very small or just calibration errors as most people don't have access to calibrations facilities ( some of us do... ).

But to do it properly you basically have a choice cheap OR good.