Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I'm looking at fitting a couple of air rams to actuate my winch dog clutch and raise/lower my lights bar. Can anyone tell me of a good place to get some?

I've found some at a place in brisbane called Norgren, but there might be some cheaper options out there. They're quoting about 80, bucks each which sounds pretty reasonable, but the solenoids they are wanting to supply run at about 180 each.

i would need a set of 5 way solenoids that direct air one way when energised (ram extends), and directs it out another port when de-energised (ram retracts).

I also want to know if there is a cheaper place to source the air locker solenoids as 90 bucks from ARB seems a bit rich.

And for all the search nazis i have tried searching but found nix.

MILO

http://www.automationdirect.com.au/

woot woot! cheers mate

Why not put a couple of 5 way pneumatic toggle switches in the cab and use these to run the cylinders.
No electrical work will be required as everything is pneumatic. Toggle switch should set you back no more than $100 each for very good quality gear.

In my last job we did a lot of Pneumatics, both design and install, we were actually Festos #2 customer in the country.

A lot of people would be surprised at just how small a pneumatic line will run a cylinder. A 63mm bore cylinder for example requires no more than a 6mm OD air line. A 50mm bore cylinder requires no more than a 4mm OD air line. The size of the line only effects the flow rate not the pressure
and most cylinders only require small flow rates.

We used to use Festo SV5-M5-B switches with H-22 toggles and 6mm OD line to run 63mm cylinders on machines with no issues whatsoever.

Ask your suppliers about this method and if they still suggest using solenoids then they are lying to get your dough.

Cheers

$155 for 1/2" 5-way in 12 or 24v.

What size bore cylinders will you be running? Do you know what size solenoid is required for which ram? Ie it would make sense if a 1/2" ram needed a 1/2" solenoid?

like struth said i've read about people using just an air-toggle switch to direct flow rather than fiddling round with soleniods etc...

Solenoids are measured by there port size, a 1/4 solenoid has 1/4 NPT threaded ports. The important thing is flow rates. A 1/4" solenoid is capable of running a 80mm (3 1/4") bore cylinder.

A 1/8" solenoid will run a 50mm bore cylinder.

A good measure is to look at the port size on the cylinder, if the cylinder has a 1/4" port then the optimum flow will be gained from a 1/4" solenoid.

The flow rate of the cylinder is determined by it's port size, you cannot get the air to flow any faster into the cylinder than it's port size allows.

The size of the air receiver supplying the system also plays a big part in flow rates, just like your 10lt recever will not run a rattle gun as long as a 60 Lt receiver.

I don't mean to ramble on but I know pneumatics and would like to see you get the system you need at the best price.

We once hooked a 120mm cylinder with a 500mm stroke to a receiver of exactly the same size, then we put a 3/4" 5 way valve in line with hi flow dump valves at the cylinder ports. When we threw the switch we couldn't even film the 500 mm action and slow it down enough to see. It was basically a very violent pneumatic action.

A lot of the time we put flow restrictors in line to slow the cylinders down.
I say this to indicate that most cylinders are capable of very high speed operation when they have too much flow rate, you don't want hi speed in your application, if you match cylinder ports to valve ports by size the cylinder will work as fast as it can and you will only need to put flow restrictors in anyway which = more expense.

cheers

cheers struth top info.

with slowing the cylinders down, pneumatic cushioning worth looking at? or is it mega $? as I noticed its available with some certain bore cylinders.

also what is the term magnetic or non-magnetic in reference to with cylinders?

thanks for the input guys.

looking at it, i guess the flowrate isn't that important to me. in both applications i'd rather a slow deliberate action rather than a fast violent one. However i'd prefer both of them to have a fair bit or strength and i believe this is a factor decided by air pressure and leverage.

i wasn't aware of the ability to use an air only toggle system, i just (silly i suppose) assumed that electric over air was the standard way of doing things. While the air only system seems simple, i'd prefer to have the switches up in my console, or in the dash and i'm not sure that it would be all that easy to run all those air lines. While my compressor is inside, the air would be coming from the tank outside, so i'm guessing that i would have to run an air line into the cab and four airlines out. I would think that it would be easier to run wiring and less bulky than air lines and fittings.

Dee wrote:cheers struth top info.

with slowing the cylinders down, pneumatic cushioning worth looking at? or is it mega $? as I noticed its available with some certain bore cylinders.

also what is the term magnetic or non-magnetic in reference to with cylinders?

Cushioning is good, it wont slow the cylinder down but if the cylinder is travelling too fast it will cushion the end of the stroke to take the shock out, it's useful regardless as it will increase the life of the cylinders and any brackets it is attached to. Most cushions are adjustable. I guess is does actually slow down the end of the cylinders strokes but most of the stroke will be at whatever the systems full speed is.

Magnetic indicates that the cylinder piston is steel (not aluminium) and can therefore be read by magnetic reed positioning switches. this function is handy in machine control when you need to know one cylinder is in a particular place before the next pneumatic action in the system takes place.

Cheers

i think when it comes to choosing the actual ram, it will be easier to just call the supplier, and tell him what force, actuation length, and air supply system i am running and let them choose.

but basically for both applications i'd be after a 100mm stroke length, with a supply of 90-120 psi from a OBA setup supplied from an 12v compressor, going to a 20L tank. the pistons would have to be happy to remain pressurised while not at full stroke length (i.e. to keep pushing on the dog clutch as it has a habit of working it's way out if you don't keep applying force or lock it into place).

The winch ram would want a push force of about 20-30kg and similar for the lights bar.

rockcrawler31 wrote:thanks for the input guys.

looking at it, i guess the flowrate isn't that important to me. in both applications i'd rather a slow deliberate action rather than a fast violent one. However i'd prefer both of them to have a fair bit or strength and i believe this is a factor decided by air pressure and leverage.

i wasn't aware of the ability to use an air only toggle system, i just (silly i suppose) assumed that electric over air was the standard way of doing things. While the air only system seems simple, i'd prefer to have the switches up in my console, or in the dash and i'm not sure that it would be all that easy to run all those air lines. While my compressor is inside, the air would be coming from the tank outside, so i'm guessing that i would have to run an air line into the cab and four airlines out. I would think that it would be easier to run wiring and less bulky than air lines and fittings.

The switches I am talking about are probably about 40mm square and 70mm long, so they take up their share of space. You would need to bring a supply line in to feed both switches and two lines out of each switch for the cylinders. So yes if space is a problem then sticking solenoids under the bonnet and just electrical switches in the cab will be best.

When deciding on cylinder size ask the supplier how much force the cylinder will supply at what pressure, in kilograms. this will give you a good rough rule of thumb for picking the size. Actuate your levers by hand or with a hook scale to get a feel for how much force in KGs is required. It is surprising how much force comes from a smaller cylinder.

Cheers

rockcrawler31 wrote:i think when it comes to choosing the actual ram, it will be easier to just call the supplier, and tell him what force, actuation length, and air supply system i am running and let them choose.

but basically for both applications i'd be after a 100mm stroke length, with a supply of 90-120 psi from a OBA setup supplied from an 12v compressor, going to a 20L tank. the pistons would have to be happy to remain pressurised while not at full stroke length (i.e. to keep pushing on the dog clutch as it has a habit of working it's way out if you don't keep applying force or lock it into place).

The winch ram would want a push force of about 20-30kg and similar for the lights bar.

All cylinders will be happy with being pressurised at part stroke, they remain pressurised at full stroke, so part stroke wont make a difference.

From memory a 50mm cylinder will deliver around 48kg of force, but you are right get the suppliers input because I don't have catalogues anymore.

cheers

thanks heaps mate.

it's given me a bit more of an idea of what i'm talking about at least so i can know what to ask the suppliers.

MILO

big and ugly, but have you thought of using a air brake ram ( to early to thing of proper name)off a truck. some of our tailgates have em and makes for a nice slow action rather than a snap and its in.

would be cheap as chips second hand too.

Gooooood tech.

Milo, is this for a PTO winch and if so what sort? (toyota or thomas?). I'd be interested to see your progress with this regardless so keep us up to date with what you come up with..

Struth wrote:
All cylinders will be happy with being pressurised at part stroke, they remain pressurised at full stroke, so part stroke wont make a difference.

From memory a 50mm cylinder will deliver around 48kg of force, but you are right get the suppliers input because I don't have catalogues anymore.

cheers

I have a tiny spread sheet which calcs the extend and retract force (different) given the different bores and rod sizes (presented on the sheet)... PM if required; i can't upload it here...

Here's an electric alternative

http://www.linak.com.au/

shorty_f0rty wrote:Milo, is this for a PTO winch and if so what sort? (toyota or thomas?). I'd be interested to see your progress with this regardless so keep us up to date with what you come up with..

It'll be for my thomas PTO, i got sick of getting in and out of the car to work the clutch, and it has a tendency to work it's way out mid line pull which can be scary. So hopefully this will fix both dramas.

i'll be adding it to the build up thread in members but it might be a couple of months as i need to build the barwork that it's all going on to first

MILO

rockcrawler31 wrote:...thomas PTO, i got sick of getting in and out of the car to work the clutch, and it has a tendency to work it's way out mid line pull which can be scary...

I have had this problem with a couple of thomas PTO's. it is pretty simple (ok, time consuming) to pull it all apart and undercut the dog teeth about 2 - 3 degrees, so they pull in against each other under load rather than walking their way out. a steady hand with the angle grinder is enough.

i like that idea brian. thanks for that. i will still put in a ram though as it means not having to get in and out while the winch bitch is running cable up and down.

RO8M wrote:

Struth wrote:
All cylinders will be happy with being pressurised at part stroke, they remain pressurised at full stroke, so part stroke wont make a difference.

From memory a 50mm cylinder will deliver around 48kg of force, but you are right get the suppliers input because I don't have catalogues anymore.

cheers

I have a tiny spread sheet which calcs the extend and retract force (different) given the different bores and rod sizes (presented on the sheet)... PM if required; i can't upload it here...

Good point the cylinder rod means that on retraction the piston is creating less force due the reduced surface area. So always use the extension stroke to do the job if more force is required.

Cheers

rockcrawler31 wrote:

shorty_f0rty wrote:Milo, is this for a PTO winch and if so what sort? (toyota or thomas?). I'd be interested to see your progress with this regardless so keep us up to date with what you come up with..

It'll be for my thomas PTO, i got sick of getting in and out of the car to work the clutch, and it has a tendency to work it's way out mid line pull which can be scary. So hopefully this will fix both dramas.

i'll be adding it to the build up thread in members but it might be a couple of months as i need to build the barwork that it's all going on to first

MILO

interesting as i was looking at doing this with my Thomas but have decided to look into having the winch engamnet done by ram instead of cable so if anyone has done this please let me know.

use pneumatic switches - cheaper and less complicated then solenoids.

a switch will cost about $120 and some look like electrical switches.

also a valve on the pressure side will make it work nice and slow. simple needle valve.

cheers bru

dwaynes wrote:

interesting as i was looking at doing this with my Thomas but have decided to look into having the winch engamnet done by ram instead of cable so if anyone has done this please let me know.

Here, this is for an mq, used inline restrictors on the outlets of the cylinder to slow it down and a pneumatic switch to activate, also used a mini regulator to limit pressure, ran it off the arb compressor.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/vi ... hlight=pto

clippard minimatics make some great gear. I am surprised they haven't been mentioned yet...

Patroler wrote:

dwaynes wrote:

interesting as i was looking at doing this with my Thomas but have decided to look into having the winch engamnet done by ram instead of cable so if anyone has done this please let me know.

Here, this is for an mq, used inline restrictors on the outlets of the cylinder to slow it down and a pneumatic switch to activate, also used a mini regulator to limit pressure, ran it off the arb compressor.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/vi ... hlight=pto

Thanks mate knew i had seen it before.