Outer Limits 4x4 Board

We are looking to make turbo kits to suit the td42 range of engines. Using ball bearing units ideally matched. What I want to know is how people would like the kits done? These turbos are good from standard settings of 70rwkw all the way to 140rwkw.


With a GU factory turbo upgrade:

Drive in drive out.

Do you want the full kit, no making of pipes etc. Unbolt, bolt up, then have it tuned properly.

A semi complete kit, making inlet pipes from air filter to turbo, turbo to i/c or inlet manifold and dump pipe, includes oil and water hose and fittings.

A turbo on its own.


For a n/a td42 kit as above, but you will have to think of air filtration, high or low mount cast manifold or tuned length unit steam pipe unit.


So what would suit?
Dyno graphs can be added if needed.


This would be also done for a 1hz and 1hdt in the future.


Andy

Dzltec wrote:With a GU factory turbo upgrade:

Drive in drive out.

Do you want the full kit, no making of pipes etc. Unbolt, bolt up, then have it tuned properly.

this would be easiest for 80% of people at least. Lots dont have access to machinery to make pipes, brackets, and welders...

I am interested to know - why ball bearing???

As I understand it, bush/sleeve/journal bearing turbos are harder/longer wearing, less sensitive to low-quality oil, and only slightly slower in spooling up.

On that basis, it would seem that a journal bearing turbo would be longer lived in a "used and abused" 4x4???

I think offering an extremely basic kit (just turbo, manifold and oil lines) would have some appeal too.

This helps the guys who have the time and skills to do the rest (and love to do it themselves) while taking care of the parts you can't properly make yourself.

I would say there is a market for both levels of kit. I fitted up my own turbo from parts i sourced myself, but given my time again i would buy the appropriate parts if they were available as a kit just to save time.

Damn you Dzltec!!!! i only just fitted my 1hz turbo. why couldn't you have offered this several months ago

My vote would be for the full kit, just bolt up and have it tuned.

Why not make a poll out of it?

I am using ball bearing as they spool a lot better, you can use a larger turbo, boost quicker, which then gives better low down torque.

If someone wanted to abuse their vehicle with poor oil, they probably wouldn't want this turbo. A bb turbo requires less oil supply than a bush bearing. They generally have to be fitted with oil restrictors to slow down oil quantity delivered.


I have yet to have anyone give me a bush bearing turbo that does nearly the same job as these units do.


We have 3 vehicles that have up to 50,000km done with this turbo, there are no issues what so ever.



Andy

The other "wish list" item.
A threaded hole in the manifold for an EGT probe, with a steel plug for those who don't yet have one.

I think if you offered the basic kit as just turbo, exhaust manifold, dump pipe and oil/water lines would be the go.
But you would then also need a list of extra bits if people wanted to buy instead of build. ie hoses, piping, intercooler, exhaust etc.

Dzltec wrote:I am using ball bearing as they spool a lot better, you can use a larger turbo, boost quicker, which then gives better low down torque.

If someone wanted to abuse their vehicle with poor oil, they probably wouldn't want this turbo. A bb turbo requires less oil supply than a bush bearing. They generally have to be fitted with oil restrictors to slow down oil quantity delivered.


I have yet to have anyone give me a bush bearing turbo that does nearly the same job as these units do.


We have 3 vehicles that have up to 50,000km done with this turbo, there are no issues what so ever.



Andy

Thanks for the info. Was interested, as I have been wondering if it would be worth upgrading the centre of my turbo to BB.

Kiwi,

thats a great idea. It would just have to be specified at the time of sending out what thread to use in the hole.




Andy

Dzltec wrote:Kiwi,

thats a great idea. It would just have to be specified at the time of sending out what thread to use in the hole.

Couldn't you just use a standard size like 1/4" or 1/8" BSPT?

If you used 1/4", you could also sell 1/4"BSPT - NPT adaptors for the (rare) person who would need one.

That is what I did with my manifold - drilled and tapped to 1/4" BSPT before I fitted the manifold/turbo.

Dzltec wrote:Kiwi,

thats a great idea. It would just have to be specified at the time of sending out what thread to use in the hole.




Andy

1/4" BSP, as long as you stock stainless compression fittings in 3 and 6mm size you'd be good to go.

Could be interested in a bolt on upgrade for 1HDFT if it comes up, id assume minimum would be a new manifold and a turbo.

Let me know if you need a test subject Andy..!

Iv'e been using roller bearings for about 6 years, I have seen two fail and have heard of a few others, they came down to abuse and lack of servicing. I've done 1HZ, 1HDT, TD42, TB42, TB45, 1FZ, 1KZ, 2F, 2H, 4.0L and 4.1 L Falcon, VN V6, Gen III, various Nissan cars and numerous others. The reduced lag makes for much faster acceleration even if the peak dyno figure dosen't vary from a plain bearing (mind you it usually will due to the larger compressors wheels generally in roller bearings). Change you oil and filter every 5000 kls and have good air filtration and you should be fine for a long time.

Cheers

Joel

Here are 5 graphs, first power at the tyres, the other torque at the tyres, air fuel ratios for all, egt for all, boost for all, and the last is showing atmospheric conditions and correction factor applied to the the highest powered run, the pink line.








Red line is standard 05 Gu ute, 4.11 gears, std tyres from factory, 3" exhaust.
Blue is as above plus boost and fuel adjustments.
Yellow is fitting the Garrett turbo, no boost or fuel adjustments.
Pink is boost and fuel adjustments to suit after Garrett fitted.


Everything was kept the same as possible except for noted changes.


I hope this helps give a better understanding of using correctly matched turbos and how flexible they can be. Since this was done tyre size has been changed, lpgas has been fitted. Tyres dropped power down, lpg bought it back up.

Reliabilty, well its now at 45,000km on the speedo, having notched up 35,000km with this turbo.


Andy

Very impressive. What boost level did you run up to? What intercooling?

can you give us some details on what was done to get that much power?? an idea of the cost involved would be good too if possible..

bring on the 1hz kit!! i was going to try and put a 1hdt pump on my 1hz to get more fuel. a bb turbo is on the list too. i think my mtq bush turbo is on the way out and the compressor wheel is damaged too.

Boost is 16psi, intercooling is still the original top mount.

To get this power you need a td42t pump that has an 11mm head and rotor. Most from 02 I think have it as standard. You do need intercooling, it will work without it but power levels will be lower and egts will get maxed out quicker.


Costs. Depends on how you want the job done. Turbo only, full kit, or drive in drive out.

A 1hdt pump has different timing advance and fuel settings. It may be possible to alter it. I will have to look and see. We have fitted 11mm h&rotors to 1hz pumps with good results.

Andy

dyno graphs are pretty useless without fuel ratios imo.

People need to know what the ratios are to determine the true worth of kits and there application.

Also there are some figures like intake temp etc that will greatly alter the power figures of a dyno graph so if ya got all of that info post it up too.
EGT would also be interesting to know too.

Not saying anything wrong with ya kit but people need to be informed more.

Fatassgq,

more than happy to post the a/f ratios up, and if we logged at the time egts as well, will do on monday. We don't tune things to be smokey. What ratios would you like to see/expect them at??

In regards to inlet air temps, there is only one dyno on the market that alters power readings according to inlet air temps. Ours uses a weather station, in doing so, output readings are corrected according to atmospheric conditions. It will also display all atmospheric conditions and correction factors of testing, so please dont make this a dyno war. It just doesnt show them on this multigraph overlay.

The point of this exercise was that nothing was changed except what is listed, its the same vehicle, done on the same dyno, strapped down the same way, run up by me. So I have my name against it. I will also personnally guarantee that anyone one can get these results.


Andy

I have a turbo and pump from Andy, I get 13-14 ltrs per 100 and i have 151rwk on 35inch tyres and standard ratios. As i am in perth it was dynoed by madrolla on this forum at united fuel injection. He can vouch for this and the accuracy of the dyno (it is not a DD dyno). I have a slight amount of smoke down low and then it is just heat haze coming out the exhaust.

Absolutly stoked with the set up. Ridiculous amounts of torque. one of my mates that did a v8 conversion said if he had his time again he would do what i did, he is that impressed.

Dzltec wrote:We have fitted 11mm h&rotors to 1hz pumps with good results.

Andy

what does all this mean? i have a 1hz pump which cant be fueled up any further, would this be a decent mod?, or does it mean that my pump is just getting old? ie. i cant get egt's over 500.

Udm,

its a decent and worthwhile mod, it all depends on what power you want to make/ what the system is capable of making. Remember things can always be detuned.


Zac, thanks for the support, I am very happy I can make something happen where ever it goes. Just don't give the secrets away


Andy

Dzltec wrote:Udm,

its a decent and worthwhile mod, it all depends on what power you want to make/ what the system is capable of making. Remember things can always be detuned.


Zac, thanks for the support, I am very happy I can make something happen where ever it goes. Just don't give the secrets away


Andy

No problem. Thanks for your support from the other side of the country also.

Great service

Cheers

Dzltec wrote:Udm,

its a decent and worthwhile mod, it all depends on what power you want to make/ what the system is capable of making. Remember things can always be detuned.

Andy

Hi

Can you message me with more info and $$ for this kind of mod? Might look into it sometime next year.

Dzltec wrote:Here are two graphs, first power at the tyres, the other torque at the tyres.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55 ... UPGRDE.jpg
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55 ... GRADER.jpg

Red line is standard 05 Gu ute, 4.11 gears, std tyres from factory, 3" exhaust.
Blue is as above plus boost and fuel adjustments.
Yellow is fitting the Garrett turbo, no boost or fuel adjustments.
Pink is boost and fuel adjustments to suit after Garrett fitted.

Very impressive!!

What are the chances of you posting up 2-3 turbo options andy?

I'm still on the hunt for the "right" turbo (obviously), but if there's a rediculous price difference between turbo 1 / turbo 2 / turbo 3, then that will be the decision maker for me. I'm not asking for specs or sizes, but just a general overview on some of your recommended options.

ie. Turbo 1: 1200-2800RPM, max. recommended boost 18psi, rated to 90rwkw

Turbo 2: 1600-3500RPM, max. recommended boost 25psi, rated to 140rwkw

Turbo 3: 2000-4500RPM, max. recommended boost 35psi, rated to 200rwkw

Something like that would be great - it gives prospective buyers enough info to pick one to suit their driving style and setup, and also allows them to know which is the better option to suit future upgrades.

Coxy

uzdnabuzd wrote:I have a turbo and pump from Andy, I get 13-14 ltrs per 100 and i have 151rwk on 35inch tyres and standard ratios. As i am in perth it was dynoed by madrolla on this forum at united fuel injection. He can vouch for this and the accuracy of the dyno (it is not a DD dyno). I have a slight amount of smoke down low and then it is just heat haze coming out the exhaust.

Absolutly stoked with the set up. Ridiculous amounts of torque. one of my mates that did a v8 conversion said if he had his time again he would do what i did, he is that impressed.

This setup is the only one that has made what has been claimed,without doubt very well thought out and put together.

Matt

got any of those fuel ratio's available mate?

I certainly wasn't interested in dyno wars cause they are a waste of time to me. Dyno sheets in general don't interest me at all cause they are only really any use for comparative results for the same motor to qualify mods etc.

Once again I am not being negative at all just interested in ya results that is all.

BTW between 18 and 20 to 1 would be good I reckon.

Cheers

Very impressive figures indeed, when it comes time to power up my 06 GU ute i'm going to be calling Andy!!