Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:11 pm**

Hi all

i've been looking at ideas for my next project after the little red devil, because i decided i wasn't in debt enough.

I am looking at a 47' cruiser ute basically keeping only the chassis and body and going from there. I'm trying to come up with the best all round design i can with excellent but well balanced flex, good high speed properties and stability for crawling.

Firstly engine choice. I know exactly squat about petrol engines but i want to go v8 on gas.

1. given the choice of LS1, LS2, LS3 or late model windsor, which would you go and why. Try to avoid the holden vs ford crap and just tell me objectively
2. which is likely to offer best bang for buck in a late model engine HP to dollar wise i mean.
3. Which is going to be easiest to wire up and set up the control systems
4. which manual gearbox is going to be best suited to offroad driving and the HP produced, or will a reco'd cruiser box be ok? If i go another manual box, how do i get the tcase to mount?

I'm looking at a full custom 5 link long arm rear with coils and fox smoothies, but what are some good options (and why) for up front. X link is probably not a goer as i'd like to keep it road legal (i might be dreaming though

)
1. 5 link long arm
2. 3 link and panhard
3. 2 link and panhard - but how do you get round the binding bushes and antiroll dramas?
4. 5 link and a quick disconnect sway bar.

Given that i'll be going with a late model motor, and a 30 year old wiring loom, do you think it will be less headache in the long run to just do a complete new wiring harness? I mean, 47's don't have a very complicated harness in the first place, surely i could lay it out and make an exact copy and integrate the motor/new auxilliary stuff at the same time

Lots of ideas would be appreciated.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:45 pm**

Is a 308 out of the question?
Would just seem a better comparison with the Windsor.

cheers

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:04 pm**

I'd like to keep it pretty late model engined. So if it holden it's going to be LS series motor, or if ford i'd want it to be similar vintage. I thought windsors were still the current 5litre ford offering. Told ya i wasn't petrol savvy

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:05 pm**

I love my Fords but a Chev 5.7 would be better than a Windsor 5.0 in stock form. A Windsor can be stroked a long way though...
If it were me I seriously think about LPG Turbo and 1-2-3UZFE Toyota (Lexus)V8.
A LOT lighter than Ford or Chev and a LOT stronger. UZFE's have 6 bolt mains!
Would maybe? bolt straight to Toyota 5 speed Cruiser box.
Something to think about..
Don't limit your possibilities before you even start!

Jas.

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:15 pm**

so what kind of HP can the toyo v8's get for what kind of coin?

a quick google search showed LS2 390kw kits for 4k and 300kw for about1.5-2k

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:44 am**

I would go with LS2 or LS3, cheap, strong, light, good power and still rev well. There is also plenty of aftermarket parts and they are readily available. There are adaptors off the shelf to suit most gearbox combo's and alot of knowloge available on these setups.

Gearbox's, I'm not sure what your into. Maybe a manualised auto? some one else will have more knolage on this.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:55 am**

want33s wrote: A LOT lighter than Ford or Chev and a LOT stronger. UZFE's have 6 bolt mains!

Jas.

Ever weighed an LS series engine? They are all alloy like the UZFE's and weigh bugger all (less than most turbo jap engines) and they too have 6 bolt mains from factory.

Bang for buck, go the ls1, they can be found cheap these days but if buying second hand steer cleer of anything pree VX series 2 as they were the piston slapping oil burners. These thing also have heaps of power to unleash with a simple tune which can be done by most performance shops these days (unlike the UZFE).

For all out power you cannot beat the LS3 with it's superior capacity and torque curve.

All Holden vs ford crap aside you cannot compare an LS series engine to any windsor, they are just in different leagues and the weight of the cast steal windsor alone makes it dis-advantaged. Even the later 5.4L ford blocks are a step behind the LS motors with their long stoke design and heavy weight.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:00 am**

Gearbox wise you will find it very hard to break a t56 six speed (but ditch the factory clutch) but they are a physically large box that may require some tunnel work.

I'm pretty sure you can get adaptors to fit the patrol 5 speeds which seem to hold up alright but I'm not sure about the cruiser boxes.

Auto wise I'd use an old school turbo 400 with a bit of work done to them, they can be built to take 600hp+ and no electronics to bugger up.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:52 am**

http://www.lextreme.com/sc.html
Will answer all your questions about power outputs with turbo/supercharger etc.

Jas.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:08 am**

LS2's have better internals then the LS1's, I would not use an LS1 as there is not much price difference between LS1 ans LS2 on purchace, but an LS1 will need internals changed if future power is to be developed where the LS2 should be fine on stock internals.

have a look here.
http://www.turnkeyengine.com/

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:30 am**

Forget about a manual with a big power motor if you want a nice drivable car in difficult terrain. The manual is going to need twice the crawl ratio to make it anywhere near as driveable offroad and then your high speed potential is going to be a problem.

(Can you even adapt a T56 to a transfer case???)

Personally, I think I'd just use an LS1 with a mafless tune. In all honesty, I think it's going to make plenty of HP for your application, It'll be the cheapest to buy and get set up. Forget gas IMHO - it's for BBQ's and forklifts. GM spend millions of $$$ writing software and designing an engine to run on petrol. Make the most of it. On a car that's going to have this much $$$ in it (and I'm going to assume will be used for limited Km's a year, say less than 20,000) petrol is the better option.

I'd use a commodore auto (4L60E) properly built, or a turbo 400 if you can get away without the overdrive. Some quick calculations will tell you. A 4L80E would be nice but they are rare and $$$$$.

Why won't an X link be legal if a fully fabricated 5 link is?
X links are the shizzle as far as I can see. Importantly, you don't have to start from scratch with geometry, bushing selection etc - just use 79/80/100 arms/mounts/axle and go from there. They 100% fix the bushing bind which is the only real problem with the radius arm design in the front.

Look at a painless wiring harness for the project. Pretty sure they do turnkey LS1 looms (4 wire hookup) as well. That will save all the labour and troubleshooting of a rewire. look for a hot rod or generic harness with enough circuits to do what you want.

Really, I'd avoid a manual for what you want to do though - I think you'll spoil the outcome.

Just my 2C. Sounds like a cool build in any case.

Steve.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:06 am**

Gwagensteve wrote:Forget about a manual with a big power motor if you want a nice drivable car in difficult terrain. The manual is going to need twice the crawl ratio to make it anywhere near as driveable offroad and then your high speed potential is going to be a problem.

(Can you even adapt a T56 to a transfer case???)

Personally, I think I'd just use an LS1 with a mafless tune. In all honesty, I think it's going to make plenty of HP for your application, It'll be the cheapest to buy and get set up. Forget gas IMHO - it's for BBQ's and forklifts. GM spend millions of $$$ writing software and designing an engine to run on petrol. Make the most of it. On a car that's going to have this much $$$ in it (and I'm going to assume will be used for limited Km's a year, say less than 20,000) petrol is the better option.

I'd use a commodore auto (4L60E) properly built, or a turbo 400 if you can get away without the overdrive. Some quick calculations will tell you. A 4L80E would be nice but they are rare and $$$$$.

Why won't an X link be legal if a fully fabricated 5 link is?
X links are the shizzle as far as I can see. Importantly, you don't have to start from scratch with geometry, bushing selection etc - just use 79/80/100 arms/mounts/axle and go from there. They 100% fix the bushing bind which is the only real problem with the radius arm design in the front.

Look at a painless wiring harness for the project. Pretty sure they do turnkey LS1 looms (4 wire hookup) as well. That will save all the labour and troubleshooting of a rewire. look for a hot rod or generic harness with enough circuits to do what you want.

Really, I'd avoid a manual for what you want to do though - I think you'll spoil the outcome.

Just my 2C. Sounds like a cool build in any case.

Steve.

Thanks everyone. It sounds like a late ls1 or ls2 is the go. How many people use an auto for higher speed events? and how do the auto's compare for fuel usage? It's obviously not going to be a tourer, but you still have to get to the tracks so i'd like to maximise the fuel i've got left when i get there.

As for legalities, I'll be moving to NSW soon so an x link is fine for the road there, but in queensland at least the rules don't make sense. It was easier for me to fit a full custom suspension coil conversion than try to get extended shackles fitted (which are a standard length on a 78/79 anyway), you could go 5 link easier than a x link - go figure.

I've never seen a painless wiring loom. for all your different circuits do they just make the wires way longer than you need so you can trim them back to put the dash switches/items wherever needed?

i do like the idea of an auto for crawling, heaps easier to control and get power down smoothly. Can someone give a quick explanation of a mafless tune.

thanks again for all the responses

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:12 am**

sorry. had a proper search for mafless and worked it out. bloody search noobs

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:25 am**

My thoughts were with a late moel fuel injected 308/304.

The LS1 may be a good option, certainly the Windsor will be the smallest motor and therfore easier to fit and work around.

Lexus V8s are very wide with good technology, wider than a 308 but produce good Kw for their size. As for having 6 bolt mains, they have to they are an aluminium block.

Cheers

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:39 am**

Fuel consumption with the auto will depend heavily on how it's set up. If a complete 4L60E was used with the converter lock retained, speed sensing etc as per factory and the gearing was right, it'll be about as economical as a manual when cruising.

If you run a T400 ( no overdrive), or a higher stall speed, or the car is revving hard because of low diff gears etc - it's gonna hurt.

As a starting point though, I'd still say take a complete Gen 3 commodore drivetrain so you know what your dealing with of you want road drivability/any pretense of economy.

Steve.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:57 am**

ENGINE: toyota 2jzgte, reason - ~$3k make 320hp stock and ~$2.5k to get 500hp reliable as!! they are a toyota motor - no oiling probs, no water ingress probs, no crank trigger dramas . . . . 7200rpm redline, and torque from 1900rpm!!yeha
G/BOX: ford c4, reason - cheap,short,tuff! basic rebuild = good for 400hp, low gearsets ~$600 and off the shelf adapters from CRS. (no need for o/drive when you can rev to 7000+)
Tcase: STAK 3spd, reason TUFF for $$$ and 3 ratios = good for everything from winch to crawling. twin stick + Rear disconnect all in one and cheap ATM!!!
DIFFS: front = built 60series (all longfield stuff) rear H260 MQ cheap and tuff.
Suspension: Radius arm front (comp series Superior flex arms, they run the 80 series ends and are ~10" longer), 4link rear. 4 x FOA 2.5" coilovers and 4" air bumps.(FOA's are awesome $ for $)

this would be the best $v$ combo ever!!!! cheap easy and mega reliable!

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:25 pm**

1MadEngineer wrote:ENGINE: toyota 2jzgte, reason - ~$3k make 320hp stock and ~$2.5k to get 500hp reliable as!! they are a toyota motor - no oiling probs, no water ingress probs, no crank trigger dramas . . . . 7200rpm redline, and torque from 1900rpm!!yeha
Sorry mate. I got me heart set on an 8

Tcase: STAK 3spd, reason TUFF for $$$ and 3 ratios = good for everything from winch to crawling. twin stick + Rear disconnect all in one and cheap ATM!!!

Holy crap!!! 3k for a transfer after i've paid for a gearbox and donk. I knew it wasnt going to be cheap but that's out of the ballpark live and dream
DIFFS: front = built 60series (all longfield stuff) rear H260 MQ cheap and tuff.

I like that idea. cheaper to set up than GU front, Probably stick with 80 or 60 rear too then
Suspension: Radius arm front (comp series Superior flex arms, they run the 80 series ends and are ~10" longer)
couldn't find a link for these on micks site
, 4link rear. 4 x FOA 2.5" coilovers and 4" air bumps.(FOA's are awesome $ for $)
Maybe, ......

this would be the best $v$ combo ever!!!! cheap easy and mega reliable!

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:37 pm**

Gwagensteve wrote:Fuel consumption with the auto will depend heavily on how it's set up. If a complete 4L60E was used with the converter lock retained, speed sensing etc as per factory and the gearing was right, it'll be about as economical as a manual when cruising.

If you run a T400 ( no overdrive), or a higher stall speed, or the car is revving hard because of low diff gears etc - it's gonna hurt.

As a starting point though, I'd still say take a complete Gen 3 commodore drivetrain so you know what your dealing with of you want road drivability/any pretense of economy.

Steve.

I like this idea. at this stage i'm leaning towards a complete late model ls1 or early ls2 with 4L60E combo from a wreck, with a marks or crs adaptor to atlas or np231 (i think)

I've done a bit of ringing around and a complete painless harness is possible, but killa will do complete rewire and grafting of the holden loom for about 2k

So at this stage it's looking like

45 ute chassis and cab
built 60 front (decent front diff with longfield superset)
60 or 80 rear
still undecided on coils or coilovers, but if i'm gonna spend a bit on decent shocks i might as well spend some more and get the coilovers
Triangulated 4 link rear
Still undecided front links
LS1 - 4l60E and some kind of transfer
complete rewire, lockers, and a lick of paint

anyone pick any holes in that?

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:38 pm**

How do you reckon it would look with the roof and rear wall taken off the ute cab (sort of like the topless shorty's), windscreen, 4point cage in cab and tube tray. Any one care to do a photo chop?

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:46 pm**

http://www.oramagazine.com/pastissues/0 ... chine.html

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:51 pm**

rockcrawler31 wrote: with a marks or crs adaptor to atlas or np231 (i think) anyone pick any holes in that?

??? I have no idea why you'd want an NP231 in this project. They're a light duty jeep case.

An NP 231OR (the rubicon case) would be better but I still think you'll be giving it too much HP and carrying too much weight. An NP 242 case (Hummer) could also be an option - they have a heavy chain- 12000lb GVM - etc but are constant 4WD.

Atlas are cool, but I'm confused about the adapter thing - An atlas should basically bolt to a 4WD 4L60E, so you'd need a truck case and rear output and then there's no need for an adapter as such, but by the time you buy all this, the VSS adapter, the case, flanges etcetcetc..... It's going to owe you squillions.

Personally I think you'd need to decide if you want a centred rear diff or an offset rear diff and then choose a GQ, Hilux or cruiser transfer depending on your requirement. They can all be regeared/doubled/both and They're cheap.

Just my 2c

Steve.

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:14 pm**

Gwagensteve wrote:
rockcrawler31 wrote: with a marks or crs adaptor to atlas or np231 (i think) anyone pick any holes in that?
??? I have no idea why you'd want an NP231 in this project. They're a light duty jeep case.

Atlas are cool, but I'm confused about the adapter thing - An atlas should basically bolt to a 4WD 4L60E,

Personally I think you'd need to decide if you want a centred rear diff or an offset rear diff and then choose a GQ, Hilux or cruiser transfer depending on your requirement. They can all be regeared/doubled/both and They're cheap.

Steve.

i've probably gone and misread a few posts and websites. I thought the NP was one of the recommended ones.
So how do you get a 4WD 4L60E? What australian vehicles do they come off? wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to get the whole motor/box off a commodore wreck and find a tcase to suit?

I couldn't really care where the diff centres are personally. Given that the toyota stuff is offset and cheaper that's probably where i'm going to go.

So let me get this straight, can i bolt up a cruiser transfer to a commodore gearbox with an adaptor? because that sounds like the easiest option

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:16 pm**

rockcrawler31 wrote:
Gwagensteve wrote:Fuel consumption with the auto will depend heavily on how it's set up. If a complete 4L60E was used with the converter lock retained, speed sensing etc as per factory and the gearing was right, it'll be about as economical as a manual when cruising.

If you run a T400 ( no overdrive), or a higher stall speed, or the car is revving hard because of low diff gears etc - it's gonna hurt.

As a starting point though, I'd still say take a complete Gen 3 commodore drivetrain so you know what your dealing with of you want road drivability/any pretense of economy.

Steve.
I like this idea. at this stage i'm leaning towards a complete late model ls1 or early ls2 with 4L60E combo from a wreck, with a marks or crs adaptor to atlas or np231 (i think)

I've done a bit of ringing around and a complete painless harness is possible, but killa will do complete rewire and grafting of the holden loom for about 2k

So at this stage it's looking like

45 ute chassis and cab
built 60 front (decent front diff with longfield superset)
60 or 80 rear
still undecided on coils or coilovers, but if i'm gonna spend a bit on decent shocks i might as well spend some more and get the coilovers
Triangulated 4 link rear
Still undecided front links
LS1 - 4l60E and some kind of transfer
complete rewire, lockers, and a lick of paint

anyone pick any holes in that?

i love v8's too but the toy6 is a much better option.

comparing apples:
2jzgte -complete $3000
built C4 - $1500
Stak3spd w/ c4adapter- $4000
toy-c4 adapter - $700
total = $9200

ls1/ls2 - $4200
4l60e(built to equiv c4) - $1200-$1800
np231 w/ adapters - $1600
atlas 2speed w/adapters - $4200
total (np231) = $7000min
total atlas = $9600min
although both are only 2speed cases - add ~$1800 for 4spd atlas

just look at the crazy malaysians' 40 in the RFC, it was sooooooo fast it was dangerous

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:24 pm**

1MadEngineer wrote: no oiling probs, no water ingress probs, no crank trigger dramas . . . .!

What problems are these? Can anyone elaborate a bit

Posted: **Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:33 pm**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXy90hioH9c

Posted: **Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:21 am**

wat are the ls1 and ls2's like on gas as havent heard of many on them

Posted: **Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:09 pm**

brentz wrote:wat are the ls1 and ls2's like on gas as havent heard of many on them

fine

Posted: **Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:04 pm**

rockcrawler31 wrote:
Gwagensteve wrote:
rockcrawler31 wrote: with a marks or crs adaptor to atlas or np231 (i think) anyone pick any holes in that?
??? I have no idea why you'd want an NP231 in this project. They're a light duty jeep case.

Atlas are cool, but I'm confused about the adapter thing - An atlas should basically bolt to a 4WD 4L60E,

Personally I think you'd need to decide if you want a centred rear diff or an offset rear diff and then choose a GQ, Hilux or cruiser transfer depending on your requirement. They can all be regeared/doubled/both and They're cheap.

Steve.
i've probably gone and misread a few posts and websites. I thought the NP was one of the recommended ones.
So how do you get a 4WD 4L60E? What australian vehicles do they come off? wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to get the whole motor/box off a commodore wreck and find a tcase to suit?

I couldn't really care where the diff centres are personally. Given that the toyota stuff is offset and cheaper that's probably where i'm going to go.

So let me get this straight, can i bolt up a cruiser transfer to a commodore gearbox with an adaptor? because that sounds like the easiest option

I Looked into the atlas transfer, and to bolt it up you can use a commodore 4l60e, then buy from the states a 4WD 4l60e output shaft and tail housing, and bolt it all together. I found a few shafts and housings on US ebay, and they were pretty cheap. It just was not a good option for the 80 series.
steve

Posted: **Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:14 am**

How about just going a brand new crate motor in either ford or chev then just going a straight gas system can get all different motors if farious sorts of power and torque outputs.

Posted: **Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:28 pm**

1MadEngineer wrote:
rockcrawler31 wrote:
Gwagensteve wrote:Fuel consumption with the auto will depend heavily on how it's set up. If a complete 4L60E was used with the converter lock retained, speed sensing etc as per factory and the gearing was right, it'll be about as economical as a manual when cruising.

If you run a T400 ( no overdrive), or a higher stall speed, or the car is revving hard because of low diff gears etc - it's gonna hurt.

As a starting point though, I'd still say take a complete Gen 3 commodore drivetrain so you know what your dealing with of you want road drivability/any pretense of economy.

Steve.
I like this idea. at this stage i'm leaning towards a complete late model ls1 or early ls2 with 4L60E combo from a wreck, with a marks or crs adaptor to atlas or np231 (i think)

I've done a bit of ringing around and a complete painless harness is possible, but killa will do complete rewire and grafting of the holden loom for about 2k

So at this stage it's looking like

45 ute chassis and cab
built 60 front (decent front diff with longfield superset)
60 or 80 rear
still undecided on coils or coilovers, but if i'm gonna spend a bit on decent shocks i might as well spend some more and get the coilovers
Triangulated 4 link rear
Still undecided front links
LS1 - 4l60E and some kind of transfer
complete rewire, lockers, and a lick of paint

anyone pick any holes in that?

i love v8's too but the toy6 is a much better option.

comparing apples:
2jzgte -complete $3000
quote]

I also love V8's but I'd give my left nut for a worked 2jzgte, possibly the best factory built performance motor ever. Literally 500hp available with a bigger turbo, re-tune and nothing else.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

need ideas for new project

need ideas for new project