Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Dude on another forum cant get his car non turbo stock Lux I thnk it was, regoed in ACT with an aftermarket turbo.. they want an engineers for the turbo ????

Anyone ever heard of this before?

Safari issue 2nd compiance plates in states that req it.

Bazzle

Yeah mine has a compliance plate for the turbo.
I know a guy here in qld that didn't have the blue plate for his turbo on a 75 and he got pinged for it.
As far as I know though he just had to get it done

It got to do with the power increase and if the brakes, chassis etc are up to the task. Makes a lot of sense to me- some people don't think about the brakes when they up the hp!

murcod wrote:It got to do with the power increase and if the brakes, chassis etc are up to the task. Makes a lot of sense to me- some people don't think about the brakes when they up the hp!

Why would they think about brakes

What has Hp got to do with the brakes ??

If a 50Kw 1000Kg vehicle is doing 100Kph and has to stop, it would take the same braking effort to stop that same vehicle from that same speed if you upped the engines output to 100Kw wouldn't it ??

If your going bigger rubber or adding signifigant weight to a vehicle you need better binders ...but not for Hp (its a 4x4 after all not a sports car)

Perhaps the rule is for sports cars ...

same thing happened to me in act... arb turbo, aparently they issue compliance plates with them but my hilux didnt need it till rego was changed to act when i bought it. had to get lift and tires and stuff engineered aswell.. all up cost 600 bucks..

love_mud wrote:

murcod wrote:It got to do with the power increase and if the brakes, chassis etc are up to the task. Makes a lot of sense to me- some people don't think about the brakes when they up the hp!

Why would they think about brakes

What has Hp got to do with the brakes ??

If a 50Kw 1000Kg vehicle is doing 100Kph and has to stop, it would take the same braking effort to stop that same vehicle from that same speed if you upped the engines output to 100Kw wouldn't it ??

If your going bigger rubber or adding signifigant weight to a vehicle you need better binders ...but not for Hp (its a 4x4 after all not a sports car)

Perhaps the rule is for sports cars ...

I had an illegally modded vehicle fitted with a turbo engine- power output went from ~42hp @ wheels to over 75kW (in a 620kg vehicle). It's the momentum from the faster acceleration (from the increased power) that is the problem. Generally standard brakes aren't up to the task- I fitted better pads, but it was still an illegal conversion.

murcod wrote:

love_mud wrote:

murcod wrote:It got to do with the power increase and if the brakes, chassis etc are up to the task. Makes a lot of sense to me- some people don't think about the brakes when they up the hp!

Why would they think about brakes

What has Hp got to do with the brakes ??

If a 50Kw 1000Kg vehicle is doing 100Kph and has to stop, it would take the same braking effort to stop that same vehicle from that same speed if you upped the engines output to 100Kw wouldn't it ??

If your going bigger rubber or adding signifigant weight to a vehicle you need better binders ...but not for Hp (its a 4x4 after all not a sports car)

Perhaps the rule is for sports cars ...

I had an illegally modded vehicle fitted with a turbo engine- power output went from ~42hp @ wheels to over 75kW (in a 620kg vehicle). It's the momentum from the faster acceleration (from the increased power) that is the problem. Generally standard brakes aren't up to the task- I fitted better pads, but it was still an illegal conversion.

I still dont get it ... the vehicle still weighs 620 Kg, so if it's turbo or not is irrelevant, fom 20, 30, or 100 it still takes the same amount of effort to stop it ... doesnt it .. how can momentum increase if speed and weight stay constant ??? 60 Kph is still 60 Kph ...


Ahhh .. just dawned on me ..

You are talking about getting to 60 ... so acceration is increased ... it's becomming clearer ..

I was looking at it from going from a speed to zero .. not from zero to a given speed ...

That's it - you're getting the idea now.

If I was an expert at Physics I could probably explain it better.

Another way to look at it is if the vehicle is accelerating flat out and the engine dies at 60km/h (and you just happen to push the clutch in at exactly the same time) it isn't going to just stop accelerating at 60km/h- is it? It will keep accelerating for a while before slowing. The brakes need to overcome/ disipate this extra energy from the faster acceleration.

murcod wrote:That's it - you're getting the idea now.

If I was an expert at Physics I could probably explain it better.

Another way to look at it is if the vehicle is accelerating flat out and the engine dies at 60km/h (and you just happen to push the clutch in at exactly the same time) it isn't going to just stop accelerating at 60km/h- is it? It will keep accelerating for a while before slowing. The brakes need to overcome/ disipate this extra energy from the faster acceleration.

Physics dont work that way once you stop applying the force it will start to slow down (but may appear to coast for some time). As the only way it can go faster is if you apply more force to it (if you do throw the clutch there will be some momentem energy still stored in the drivtran but not much).
eg if you throw a ball its fastest point is just as it leaves your hand.

yeap, no more energy being produced no more acceleration.

i have to put bigger brakes on my 4by coz of the V8 transplant, but the theory on 'the car needs bigger brakes because its heavier' goes down the toilet, because the V8 is actually lighter, it lost about 100kgs.

i think your kinda on the right track though, i think it has to do with potential speeds and the fact you will be able to get to faster speeds in shorter time/distance, therefor you need to stop in less time/distance.

Plating the turbo is required due to the potential increase in power and heat. You didn't use to need to get a Diesel Turbo Conversion plated but when the re wrote the rules last they left the footnote out.

It is the same as any power upgrade they require an engineer to say that the vehicle is capable of handling the change in power, it could be top speed , it could be traction, it could be the ability to stop the vehicle with all its new speed.

In relation to heat... many of the installs mean that there is a new heat source sitting right near the brake master cylinder, ie on the LN106 Hilux. The inspection ensures that there is a shield in place to stop excess heat getting to the fluid.

I am sure their is other reasons but these where the ones the engineer gave me when he took the $80 of me to plate my hilux.

ive got a hilux that had a 2L motor with a turbo bolted on, i blew that up and bought a new 2L-THE motor and tried to get the engine numbers changed but he wouldnt until it gets engineered. the original wasnt engineered either. i think its a load of schit when im still using a motor that was used in my exact car with no difference whatsoever to brakes etc.

i've had to prepare a few cars with engineers reports for lots of reasons,
but a common mod is turbos on rotaries.
the brakes have to be improved because of the performance increase.
its not that the weight change is significant it is mainly the hp increase.
the acceleration potential is greater in that the car can go from 0-100kph twice as fast now. it therefore (in theory) has to be able to stop more often. braking creates heat so (usually) larger brakes are fitted.
if thats confusing then a proper brake test involves an engineer driving the car and doing 0-60-0kph four times in a row then 0-100-0kph stright away. there must be no brake fade at all.
standard brakes may not be able to dissipate enough heat because the car can accelerate quicker.
a good engineer shouldbe able to drive the vehicle and do the prescribed test as above.
most turbo 4b's aren't pumping out huge power by modified vehicle standards so i reckon healthy brakes would pass a test.
(especially when you turn the boost down!!)

modman wrote:a proper brake test involves an engineer driving the car and doing 0-60-0kph four times in a row then 0-100-0kph stright away. there must be no brake fade at all.

I've bought brand new cars that wouldn't have a hope of passing that test!!!

*puts shovel down*

So who has engineered a turbo? Do you need an eng cert if your car came witht he option of turbo from factory, and you are using a stock turbo from the same make/model? But your particular individual one didnt have that? What would/should it cost to get it all engineered and approved?

This has always been the standard in the ACT.

Also once the vehicle is modified it is supposed to go over the RTA pits instead of your local mechanic so they can pick it to bits.

Engineering in Canberra is usually around $650. Regardless of the mods.

There is a more expensive more thorough engineer but people prefer to go to the simpler easier inspection.Ive had my Patrol engineered and my supercharged Sierra 4agze in Canberra and it was me that had to drive the car in brake and swerve tests not the engineeer. He didnt even get in the car.

My 1st engineers report for my hilux has/had the turbo listed on it. If you are getting 1 thing engineered you are best off listing EVERYTHING you can even if it doesn`t need an engineer report.

Current report has the V8 listed on it

Would emissions have anything to do with this? Not sure about diesels, but i'm pretty sure if you modify a petrol you're meant to prove the emissions are on par with those of the stock car (massively expensive).

Brakes are of course the other issue.

-Stu

dogbreath_48 wrote:Would emissions have anything to do with this? Not sure about diesels, but i'm pretty sure if you modify a petrol you're meant to prove the emissions are on par with those of the stock car (massively expensive).

Brakes are of course the other issue.

-Stu

This is the problem in Melbourne. Damn ADR's!!!

If you put an aftermarket turbo system on a car you need to prove to an engineer that it meets ADR 27 requirements before he will even look at the car. This test costs upwards of $2500 in Vic and only a few places do it, you pay if you pass or fail.

Engineers seem to be a bit more relaxed in other states accepting simple 4 gas analyser tests. :(

I have called every Vicroads accredited engineer in Vic about this to try and get a car that I bought RWC and legal so I could insure it. I didnt want to risk the $2500+ so I sold the car on to a guy in QLD who didnt have the same troubles. It was a 2000 model AU XR6 putting out a nice 310 rwkw in case your wondering.

Guts wrote:My 1st engineers report for my hilux has/had the turbo listed on it. If you are getting 1 thing engineered you are best off listing EVERYTHING you can even if it doesn`t need an engineer report.

Current report has the V8 listed on it

Any engineer issuing an engineers certificate must certify all modifications to the vehicle, even if some have been previously engineered.

This is the case in QLD at least. Dont know about other states.

So if you have a seat certified then add a turbo, the engineer must be able to certify the seat AND turbo. If the seat was to fail and someone died the last engineer to issue a certificate will be hung for it.

dansedgli wrote:If you put an aftermarket turbo system on a car you need to prove to an engineer that it meets ADR 27 requirements before he will even look at the car. This test costs upwards of $2500 in Vic and only a few places do it, you pay if you pass or fail. .

My engineer never asked for it...

bogged wrote:

dansedgli wrote:If you put an aftermarket turbo system on a car you need to prove to an engineer that it meets ADR 27 requirements before he will even look at the car. This test costs upwards of $2500 in Vic and only a few places do it, you pay if you pass or fail. .

My engineer never asked for it...

Is he on the Vicroads list?

Can you PM me his details please? Im going to have to go through the same process with my torana as soon as I put it all back together.

RockyF70 wrote:*puts shovel down*

So who has engineered a turbo? Do you need an eng cert if your car came witht the option of turbo from factory, and you are using a stock turbo from the same make/model? But your particular individual one didnt have that? What would/should it cost to get it all engineered and approved?

dansedgli wrote:

bogged wrote:

dansedgli wrote:If you put an aftermarket turbo system on a car you need to prove to an engineer that it meets ADR 27 requirements before he will even look at the car. This test costs upwards of $2500 in Vic and only a few places do it, you pay if you pass or fail. .

My engineer never asked for it...

Is he on the Vicroads list?

Can you PM me his details please? Im going to have to go through the same process with my torana as soon as I put it all back together.

Adding a turbo to an engine that comes in turbo diesel form, and adding one to a Torana might, unfortunately, be treated differently.

I assume emissions requirments are different for diesels versus petrols...

RockyF70 wrote:

RockyF70 wrote:*puts shovel down*

So who has engineered a turbo? Do you need an eng cert if your car came witht the option of turbo from factory, and you are using a stock turbo from the same make/model? But your particular individual one didnt have that? What would/should it cost to get it all engineered and approved?

no aslong as the brakes etc meet the same specs as the turbo model.

dansedgli wrote:Is he on the Vicroads list?

Can you PM me his details please? Im going to have to go through the same process with my torana as soon as I put it all back together.

no need to PM it it was Kevin Williams, search for him, he used to do quite a bit of stuff for 4wds but now isnt keen on them. not sure about the Torana.

Aftermarket turbos on 4x4's are a bit of a gray area, Plenty of shops will bolt them on, they will then get road worthied and on sold.... All illegal!!!!! if you read the vic roads bulliten on modifications it states that all turbos need engineering approval..... What the problem is emmissions. Spoke to the same engineer as you recommended bogged and he stated that i needed a emissions test...... The engineer that i am using stated the same thing.... cost $2000 and almost certain to fail first time.

Rang MTQ to see if they had any emission info for thir kits..... laughed at me.

So there are plenty of aftermarket turbo 4x4 getting around, insured and roadworthy with no engineer certificate..... go figure.....

Just what I know and my 2c's

From the Vic Roads Page:

"Fitting of turbo chargers other than those fitted by the original manufacturer must be covered by an approval certificate."


So basically, is this saying that buying a second hand factory turbo shouldn't require the cert?

Or, would fitting an aftermarket turbo of same size/characteristics of the factory turbo comply?

Also, it mentions an inspection but doesn't mention emmisions test. Not necessarily meaning it wouldn't be done.

If anyone has had this done, could they post up roughly what they paid for this. (I'm wondering how many people have actually done this)