Outer Limits 4x4 Board

As discussed in another topic recently, I'm in the market for a new vehicle and it's gonna be diesel.

Now having only owned petrol powered suzukis (and non-fourby's), I'm a total diesel newb.

I've heard from some people that diesel motors run forever, and from others that I lots lower KMs is worth heaps of extra cash. Basically what I'm trying to work out is, if a diesel engine has done around 400,000 kms, is it about to fall apart and die??

Fact is, I'm not going to have my next vehicle for that long, I'll probably only need it for a year or three and I'm happy for it to basically fall apart after that. But if it fell apart before that I will be very upset.

So is 400,000 k's on a diesel too many? Assuming it hasn't been flogged otherwise?

Have any diesel owners had vehicles that have fallen apart at that age?

Serviced regularly, and given clean oil, fuel, and air, a diesel should last a very long time. 400 000km on a diesel treated as above, would probably equate to around a petrol with say- 150 000km on the clock, treated as above. No doubt, some will have differing opinions.

I give mine new oil every 5000km, a new oil filter every 10 000, a new air cleaner element when required, and I have 3 fuel filters between tank and injectors.

at 400thousand k's its not just the engine that become an issue.

at 400thousand any engine can go have a catastrophic failure at any time. Just think how many times that crank has turned.

I have a 1HZ diesel in a 75 series, it's done 360k+, the pump has only just started leaking in the last week or two, it's never been off yet .

My car has new oil every 5-7k(depend's when i look), and apart from the pump leaking nothing has gone wrong yet , but most of these k's are country k's, it has been the most reliable thing i've owned

If you can buy a 4WD that has been looked after from the country 400 000k would not worry me too much, but have enough in the budget to get the pump+injectors looked at, IF need be for piece of mind.

I would say 400-500thousand is the most common point for a 4wd diesel engine to shit itself one way or another. Mine went to 420thousand before the top of no2 piston cracked away which meant a full tear down. Could have just replaced said piston, but what about the other 5? what about the rings, bearings, etc. Full rebuild was in order, costing nearly 4.5k and that was the best price i could get.

The other thing you need to consider, is that every component of the car has done 400thousand. Door hinges wear out, seats, gearbox diff, tailshafts.

After 400thousand you just end up rebuilding the whole car a little at a time. Is this what you want to be doing?

And there's diesels and there's diesels.

A large n/a 6 pot from Toyota or Nissan, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even the turbocharged versions should be OK.

A small turbocharged 4 pot I would be a little more suspicious about. Anybody know how the old diesel Golfs have fared over time?

Some of the newer common rail engines are making impressive power and torque figures - I have doubts about their ability to hold together in the "traditional" diesel manner.

-Scott- wrote: Some of the newer common rail engines are making impressive power and torque figures - I have doubts about their ability to hold together in the "traditional" diesel manner.

Time will tell I spose

Cheers guys, very helpful.

-Scott- wrote: A large n/a 6 pot from Toyota or Nissan, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even the turbocharged versions should be OK.

based on what do you make that assertion?

Not nitpicking or being an ass, just seriously want to know why you think this.

Having owned a toyota with 400+thousand k's on it and having gone through the motions of a rebuilding an engine, I would strongly disagree with you.

Shadow wrote:

-Scott- wrote: A large n/a 6 pot from Toyota or Nissan, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even the turbocharged versions should be OK.

based on what do you make that assertion?

Not nitpicking or being an ass, just seriously want to know why you think this.

Having owned a toyota with 400+thousand k's on it and having gone through the motions of a rebuilding an engine, I would strongly disagree with you.

whereas i would agree, having had an MQ patrol with over half a million kays on it, and the only reason it died was because i blew a rad hose and cooked it. treated well, old diesels will run for a lot longer that most of the vehicles they are in will last...

plenty of TD42's around with 600k klms + without issues.

it all depends on the history of the engine from NEW... treat it well, it will treat you well.

Shadow wrote:

-Scott- wrote: A large n/a 6 pot from Toyota or Nissan, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even the turbocharged versions should be OK.

based on what do you make that assertion?

Not nitpicking or being an ass, just seriously want to know why you think this.

Having owned a toyota with 400+thousand k's on it and having gone through the motions of a rebuilding an engine, I would strongly disagree with you.

the fact the nissan td42 is one of the most reliable diesels in 4wds ever probably has alot to do with it.

its only the toyota turbo diesels that like to spin big ends.

i know id rather a td42 with half a million on it, than a rd28 or a zd30, or any of the other smaller motors.

the big lazy motors just keep plugging along.

Shadow wrote:

-Scott- wrote: A large n/a 6 pot from Toyota or Nissan, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even the turbocharged versions should be OK.

based on what do you make that assertion?

Specific power outputs. The large (4.2 litre) six cylinder diesels are torquey, low stressed engines, with a conservative state of tune.

Something with half the capacity (OK, that may be exaggerating a little) and fewer cylinders, but producing similar power and torque, must be generating higher pressures and/or forces somewhere. This is not as conducive to long life.

Shadow wrote:Not nitpicking or being an ass, just seriously want to know why you think this.

Oh, go on. Nitpick. You know you want to.

Shadow wrote:Having owned a toyota with 400+thousand k's on it and having gone through the motions of a rebuilding an engine, I would strongly disagree with you.

To every rule there is an exception.

I rest my case.

I have a 2.8 TD rocky diesel here that lived till ~770 000 ks.

But at the same time, I've been through 2 engines of the same so far on my rocky, one TD one NA. Both with under 400k on them.

My opinion, it goes down to servicing from the start. Which is increasingly hard to prove/trace when vehicles get old.

But at the end of the day, I think it'd still work out cheaper to buy a old diesel and allow for a full rebuild, than to buy a newer, low k's one. Plus there's a good chance you won't need to rebuild it in the 3 or so years you say you'll need it.

-Scott- wrote:

Shadow wrote:

-Scott- wrote: A large n/a 6 pot from Toyota or Nissan, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even the turbocharged versions should be OK.

based on what do you make that assertion?

Specific power outputs. The large (4.2 litre) six cylinder diesels are torquey, low stressed engines, with a conservative state of tune.

Something with half the capacity (OK, that may be exaggerating a little) and fewer cylinders, but producing similar power and torque, must be generating higher pressures and/or forces somewhere. This is not as conducive to long life.

Shadow wrote:Not nitpicking or being an ass, just seriously want to know why you think this.

Oh, go on. Nitpick. You know you want to.

Shadow wrote:Having owned a toyota with 400+thousand k's on it and having gone through the motions of a rebuilding an engine, I would strongly disagree with you.

To every rule there is an exception.

I rest my case.

I tend to agree. Piston speed is also highly relevant- engine life is directly related to this, all other things being equal. Even allowing for the usually longer stroke of a bigger engine, piston speed tends to be much less as they operate at lower revs.

Type of use is also a big factor in engine life, an engine which has done lots of highway km tends to do more km before wearing out, this may have more to do with less cold starts and more use at operating temp than the actual type of road its driven on.

400,000kms? It's taken me 8 years to do 72,000 on mine, I'll be long dead before I ever hit 400,000 in the Jeep!

Ben wrote:400,000kms? It's taken me 8 years to do 72,000 on mine, I'll be long dead before I ever hit 400,000 in the Jeep!

cremated while out wheeling in it?

reliability depends on the motor. a toyota 1hz will do 700-800 thousand k's if serviced properly. a toyota 2h might do 450 thousand if your lucky. Toyota turbo'd motors might do 500 thousand. hilux motors (L series) won't see much past 450ish.

but the reality is at these km's it everything around the motor that is likely to fall apart.

1hz alternator, starter motors are only good for 250 thousand odd k's.
gearboxes won't normally break, but the syncros will wear. diffs probably won't last the life of the motor. then you've got steering parts and all the rest.

at 400,000 i'd be suprised if the wheel bearings on a toyota have been done. (they do last quite a long time)

Don't be suckered into the 'diesel's last for ever- 400 is nothing' myth. it's total crap.

while working for toyota a customer had a bj40 it did 1.1 million kms on the long motor not the accesories mind you and toyota bought the engine off him,.john laws even had a talk to him advertising the fact
also know of a guy who uses a 60ser 2h for escorting wide loads and it went 920 000 kms befoere new motor
both cars were serviced every 5000km and were mainly hwy kms not tootling around the suburbs

I had a Mazda T400 that did 750 000 k,s plus add all the hours lifting and dropping skip bins. Services were done every 10 000. i have seen big rigs with over 1 mill kays on them. All were diligently serviced, thats what gets the longevity i believe .

I would not buy a diesel with 400k on it unless it was really cheap due to uncertainty with the engine,
but if i owned a diesel with 400k that i had looked after i wouldn't be worried.

oldmate wrote:reliability depends on the motor. a toyota 1hz will do 700-800 thousand k's if serviced properly. a toyota 2h might do 450 thousand if your lucky. Toyota turbo'd motors might do 500 thousand. hilux motors (L series) won't see much past 450ish.

but the reality is at these km's it everything around the motor that is likely to fall apart.

1hz alternator, starter motors are only good for 250 thousand odd k's.
gearboxes won't normally break, but the syncros will wear. diffs probably won't last the life of the motor. then you've got steering parts and all the rest.

at 400,000 i'd be suprised if the wheel bearings on a toyota have been done. (they do last quite a long time)

Don't be suckered into the 'diesel's last for ever- 400 is nothing' myth. it's total crap.

after speaking to 7ish different engine builders when i was pricing a rebuild, 400thousand is about the time to commit all in, or get out.

From what they say, most engines both nissans and toyota give up around the 400-500thousand mark. yet there is a common beliefe that they will go 800 thousand as has been posted above by many people.

I have no doubt these engines are capable of doing 800thousand k's. But it is 100% to do with servicing and the life the engine has lead, and A large chunk of 4wd's are used as daily drivers doing short runs which kills engine life.

I bought dads 2000 TD hilux off him at 420,000kms (he had it from new and had it serviced every 7000kms.)
10,000kms later I did a trip to the simpson desert and it didnt miss a beat, still have it now with 470,000kms on the clock.
He had the gearbox rebuilt at 350,000kms though.
Its still going great!
I dont think I would of bought it though so readily if I didnt know its history. Always a gamble buying something with fairly high kms, especially a 4wd as you never know where its spent its life!

step dad has 80 series sahara with 660,000 still goes really well

Luxy wrote:I bought dads 2000 TD hilux off him at 420,000kms (he had it from new and had it serviced every 7000kms.)
10,000kms later I did a trip to the simpson desert and it didnt miss a beat, still have it now with 470,000kms on the clock.
He had the gearbox rebuilt at 350,000kms though.
Its still going great!
I dont think I would of bought it though so readily if I didnt know its history. Always a gamble buying something with fairly high kms, especially a 4wd as you never know where its spent its life!

thats also had the k's put on it very quickly, which means lots of long trips(to work, drive all day for work?), which is great for a deisel engine.

Yeah, dad used it for work and did a fair bit of driving each week as you can see, which, as you say, the diesel just seem to love!

not unusual to see 600k on a 1hz or similar......

Between my customers we have some 1HZ Toyotas with 500k+ km's on them, even 300tdi Land Rovers with close to 400k. I had my RD28T Nissan up to 300k when I sold it, just needed the occasional head at 250k as usual.
I also know about a lot of Mercedes Taxis with 700+k on them. Older model VW (before TDI) are good for at least 500k. Newer TDI's (VW) tend to die at around 200k. We even had a BMW 735i gasser, one of the first, in our shop fleet which we had to scrap at 750k km's because of the body being weak as hell after that many miles. We ripped the engine out and sent it to BMW for a check, it was good for another 250k they said.
TD27 Nissan are also known for 400k around here.

pfft- you guys arent doing big Kms.

ive got a work truck at the moment thats got 206,000kms on the clock. Its a 2001 HZJ79.

Yeah, 206,000 isnt a lot of kms. But thats only what the clock is showing- This thing runs a PTO to drive a hydraulic pump for 5hrs a day- at 1200rpm, in 5th gear, thats 50kph, so for every 150kms thats on the clock, theres another 250kms the engine and gearbox have driven for.

Makes it 549,000kms in 7yrs!

we have a 2H powered one thats been going since '88- thats up to 790,000ms on clock (2,106,000kms) and she still chugs along!

My brothers 80 series 1HZ traded at 680,000km untouched. My 80 series 1HZ shat completely at 300,000km.
I drove mine gently compared to my brother and was more meticulous with maintenance.
You can't pick it sometimes.

i would think 400k minimum if treated well.

my 1HZ is going nicely with 370K on the clock.
fingers crossed.