Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey guys just doing some dreaming/research and wanted to hear some pros/cons about these two different setups in a rear diff setup.

1/4 elliptic seems to give better traction under acceleration. Flex looks like it'll depend on how the panhard is mounted. Coils can sometimes fall out, 1/4 elliptic would be heavier than coils.

So what do people think? Fabrication wise they both require about the same amount of effort from what I have found out so far.

I've seen a lot of US rigs running 1/4 elliptic but not a lot out here in Aus. Any reason for this?

Also as a side note, can airshox in a standalone setup handle high speed driving situations?

If you're going to all that effort coils are the answer

1/4 eliptic leaves are prone to breaking the leaves. i would run coils.

Not many trucks run them cause like you said same work to go coils. Leaves would also not last as long as coils.

Sam Keck's Aztek buggy ran 1/4 eliptic, was in Tuff truck 2002.

I wouldn't imagine on a zook that it would break leaves...especially when using something like a half pack of MQ leaves or something similar.

dank wrote:I wouldn't imagine on a zook that it would break leaves...especially when using something like a half pack of MQ leaves or something similar.

i think its because the leaves twist etc which causes them to crack.

they will do it under any vehicle.

im happy with my coil rear.
2 long lowers, one short upper and a panhard

years ago i ran 1/4 eliptical.......never again....shit set-up. running coils is so much better and legal. traction under acceleration will come down to how the arms are set up.

joeblow has a nice set up, check out his build.

1/4 elliptic or coils will have zero effect on traction - traction is all in the link geometry.

Coils that fall out is just down to coils that are too short/shocks too long. Once a coil is off its seat the suspension no longer works properly anyway

There's nothing "wrong" with 1/4 eliptic but it will require custom springs to be made - expensive.

Saying 1/4 eliptic is shit is like saying coils are shit... if you have the wrong coils. It's only a spring.

however, 1/4 needs lots of spring length to work and has its own installation problems - I'd say it's not a great setup for a sierra, although Tim Hardy has run it for years.

Part of the key is not being greedy about travel - a light, SWB car with power and victorian conditions won't work well with lots of floppy travel, and the ease you can let lots of floppy loose travel with 1/4 makes it hard to control at speed and under power.

Just some thoughts.

Steve.

Some good thoughts there. I have seen Joeblows setup and yes it is very nice.

What are some of the installation problems that are faced with 1/4 steve?

Do you need to run an A-frame on top of the diff or will a panhard be sufficient for location of the housing?

Instead of coils what about airshox? Airshox seem to run nice on Rock crawlers; but are they up to longer periods of high speed work? I've seen races like King of the hammers etc that are pretty much rock crawling buggies running airshoxs only.

thoughts?

I'll answer in more detail later but airshocks are a bad candidate. Have a good look at the speed sections of KOH an video and the airshock cars are generally handling terribly. They jack as they heat, have very variable spring rates through their travel, and can be "sticky" - they dont seem to move very freely.

Shannon Campbell was running 3" airshocks with bypass from memory at KOH- they were prototypes, but he also had a very light buggy with a very low COG, hiding some of their problems.

Why wouldn't you want an aframe? much easier to work with than a panhard and 4 link, much better performing than radius arm/panhard.

installation problems - a big long spring running from the chassis to the axle will generally be right where you want your lower links. on a small car with relatively narrow track, you're going to have room issues.

Moving the springs inboard will stuff the roll stiffness - bad for Victoria.

Steve.

i'll stick with 1/4 being shite, and not legal. i was lucky to have a lwb so i had room to play with. it was 3 link with a-frame. you have to match your spring choice with where you locate the bumpstop it will be resting on. i did a lot of tuning and at the end of the day i had some great wheel travel ( but took a bucket load away from the front) and the onroad handling was not impressive, a normal leaf sprung zook with dakars would ride better. i only say this as i have tried it, and to me it was a waste of time. a nicely done coil conversion is way better, but i've also seen some very quick and nasty ones. it is a big job so do some research and take your time doing it and you'll love the results.( of coils that is!)

Cheers for the info. As I said originally, this is just research at the moment, its good to get the info off you guys who have been there before. I'm just weighing up my options. Liking to keep it simple, I might end up sticking with a nice long leaf set-up, but while my car is off the road I may as well explore these other options as well. Flex is overrated (i guess this is what people who dont have it say!), lockers aren't!

Air shocks are shit unless its going to be a designated crawler!!

i have Air Shocks in my rig and yes its designated to crawling but i also use it on trail trips and sometimes on road and the air shocks are crap in this application..they dont absorb the bumps at speeds at all making it one bumpy ride!! coil-overs are the way to go!!

link it with coil-overs!! i dont think flex is over rated if your keeping your wheels on the ground you have traction. i drove to the 80point marker at TTC unlocked due to the fact i had enough flex to keep the wheels on the ground!!

Evan

Evan, have you tried to tune yours yet? Just curious.

Layto....

evanstaniland wrote:Air shocks are shit unless its going to be a designated crawler!!

i have Air Shocks in my rig and yes its designated to crawling but i also use it on trail trips and sometimes on road and the air shocks are crap in this application..they dont absorb the bumps at speeds at all making it one bumpy ride!! coil-overs are the way to go!!

link it with coil-overs!! i dont think flex is over rated if your keeping your wheels on the ground you have traction. i drove to the 80point marker at TTC unlocked due to the fact i had enough flex to keep the wheels on the ground!!

Evan

Air shocks dominated the King of Hammars race this year and it was a race over moderately hard trails (very well setup hard core trail rigs drive the trails fairly easily) and lots of high speed desert sections where some rigs got to speeds over 160km/h.

The success of the air shocks in the race supprised alot of people and there are lots of threads discussing this on pirate.

But basically air shocks can work in the fast stuff...its all in the setup.

Sam

evanstaniland wrote:Air shocks are shit unless its going to be a designated crawler!!

i have Air Shocks in my rig and yes its designated to crawling but i also use it on trail trips and sometimes on road and the air shocks are crap in this application..they dont absorb the bumps at speeds at all making it one bumpy ride!! coil-overs are the way to go!!

Evan

get rid of some oil

does he even know how many bleed holes are in the piston?

joeblow wrote:i'll stick with 1/4 being shite, and not legal. i was lucky to have a lwb so i had room to play with. it was 3 link with a-frame. you have to match your spring choice with where you locate the bumpstop it will be resting on. i did a lot of tuning and at the end of the day i had some great wheel travel ( but took a bucket load away from the front) and the onroad handling was not impressive, a normal leaf sprung zook with dakars would ride better. i only say this as i have tried it, and to me it was a waste of time. a nicely done coil conversion is way better, but i've also seen some very quick and nasty ones. it is a big job so do some research and take your time doing it and you'll love the results.( of coils that is!)

You say a nicely done coil set up is way better maybe thats because you didnt have a nicely setup /4 eliptic.

Why are 1/4 eliptic not legal i run this set up in the back of my cut down 4runner (ie pretty much a single cab lux) and it was engineered and legally registered.
I made my springs from cut down luxs springs about double the amount of leaves in the pack though and it road quit nicely. Controling the flex is an issue but with a well desgined roll bar set up like an antirock in the rear, it can be tuned well to eliminate unloading and also to keep the front working evenly. When set up properly the sway bar will hardly affect the suspenion flex, on my old truck it only limited abou an inch of down travel. This sway bar set up also will give it good road maners. Most coil conversions would also benifit from a good sway bar set up also, as long soft coils have the same problems as 1/4's

I will say with out a sway bar they are pretty floppy and there is a lot more work in setting up a 1 /4 rear than a coil rear.

lay80n wrote:Evan, have you tried to tune yours yet? Just curious.

Layto....

nope not yet

Strange Rover wrote: Air shocks dominated the King of Hammars race this year and it was a race over moderately hard trails (very well setup hard core trail rigs drive the trails fairly easily) and lots of high speed desert sections where some rigs got to speeds over 160km/h.

The success of the air shocks in the race supprised alot of people and there are lots of threads discussing this on pirate.

But basically air shocks can work in the fast stuff...its all in the setup.

Sam

i didnt find them rough on the beach just fast dirt roads

but as posted i need to tune them to get better ride!!

Evan

dave wrote:

joeblow wrote:i'll stick with 1/4 being shite, and not legal. i was lucky to have a lwb so i had room to play with. it was 3 link with a-frame. you have to match your spring choice with where you locate the bumpstop it will be resting on. i did a lot of tuning and at the end of the day i had some great wheel travel ( but took a bucket load away from the front) and the onroad handling was not impressive, a normal leaf sprung zook with dakars would ride better. i only say this as i have tried it, and to me it was a waste of time. a nicely done coil conversion is way better, but i've also seen some very quick and nasty ones. it is a big job so do some research and take your time doing it and you'll love the results.( of coils that is!)

You say a nicely done coil set up is way better maybe thats because you didnt have a nicely setup /4 eliptic.

Why are 1/4 eliptic not legal i run this set up in the back of my cut down 4runner (ie pretty much a single cab lux) and it was engineered and legally registered.
I made my springs from cut down luxs springs about double the amount of leaves in the pack though and it road quit nicely. Controling the flex is an issue but with a well desgined roll bar set up like an antirock in the rear, it can be tuned well to eliminate unloading and also to keep the front working evenly. When set up properly the sway bar will hardly affect the suspenion flex, on my old truck it only limited abou an inch of down travel. This sway bar set up also will give it good road maners. Most coil conversions would also benifit from a good sway bar set up also, as long soft coils have the same problems as 1/4's

I will say with out a sway bar they are pretty floppy and there is a lot more work in setting up a 1 /4 rear than a coil rear.

i take it this is from personal experience with both?

joeblow wrote:

dave wrote:

joeblow wrote:i'll stick with 1/4 being shite, and not legal. i was lucky to have a lwb so i had room to play with. it was 3 link with a-frame. you have to match your spring choice with where you locate the bumpstop it will be resting on. i did a lot of tuning and at the end of the day i had some great wheel travel ( but took a bucket load away from the front) and the onroad handling was not impressive, a normal leaf sprung zook with dakars would ride better. i only say this as i have tried it, and to me it was a waste of time. a nicely done coil conversion is way better, but i've also seen some very quick and nasty ones. it is a big job so do some research and take your time doing it and you'll love the results.( of coils that is!)

You say a nicely done coil set up is way better maybe thats because you didnt have a nicely setup /4 eliptic.

Why are 1/4 eliptic not legal i run this set up in the back of my cut down 4runner (ie pretty much a single cab lux) and it was engineered and legally registered.
I made my springs from cut down luxs springs about double the amount of leaves in the pack though and it road quit nicely. Controling the flex is an issue but with a well desgined roll bar set up like an antirock in the rear, it can be tuned well to eliminate unloading and also to keep the front working evenly. When set up properly the sway bar will hardly affect the suspenion flex, on my old truck it only limited abou an inch of down travel. This sway bar set up also will give it good road maners. Most coil conversions would also benifit from a good sway bar set up also, as long soft coils have the same problems as 1/4's

I will say with out a sway bar they are pretty floppy and there is a lot more work in setting up a 1 /4 rear than a coil rear.

i take it this is from personal experience with both?

Yep and ive run Air shocks to.

Joe didn't have his leaves set up the way they are generally done in 1/4 - they rode on a bumpstop about 1/2 way along the leaf and were hinged at the chassis.

Dave - from what I've seen your 1/4 was very nicely done.

Steve.

i do apologise. it seems gwagonsven knows more about all the set-ups i tried before taking the vehicle off the road and buildind a new one (and consulting with various vic engineers to find out they won't touch that set-up). will be sure to contact you steve when i need to order the correct parts for my vehicle...just to be sure.

joeblow wrote:i do apologise. it seems gwagonsven knows more about all the set-ups i tried before taking the vehicle off the road and buildind a new one (and consulting with various vic engineers to find out they won't touch that set-up). will be sure to contact you steve when i need to order the correct parts for my vehicle...just to be sure.

Sounds like a good idea as it might stop your springs from falling out

cj wrote:

joeblow wrote:i do apologise. it seems gwagonsven knows more about all the set-ups i tried before taking the vehicle off the road and buildind a new one (and consulting with various vic engineers to find out they won't touch that set-up). will be sure to contact you steve when i need to order the correct parts for my vehicle...just to be sure.

Sounds like a good idea as it might stop your springs from falling out

POW !!

cj wrote:

joeblow wrote:i do apologise. it seems gwagonsven knows more about all the set-ups i tried before taking the vehicle off the road and buildind a new one (and consulting with various vic engineers to find out they won't touch that set-up). will be sure to contact you steve when i need to order the correct parts for my vehicle...just to be sure.

Sounds like a good idea as it might stop your springs from falling out

Wow, it's a good thing that everything Steve has ever built has never had an issue.

dave wrote:

joeblow wrote: i take it this is from personal experience with both?

Yep and ive run Air shocks to.

Spartacus you missed this POW!

1 more and joeblow will be on the matt