Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi all,

I have had a bit of a search on here and else where and can't find the exact answers that I'm after. If I'm getting you to repeat yourselves I am sorry.

Here goes. I am trying to get together all the major components for a project that I want to make.

A ROUGH OUTLINE OF WHAT I WANT TO ACHIEVE:

A comfortable, economical everyday driver
Power when I need it, sick of the 2.4 diesel hilux!!!
SJ413 body and chassis
trimmed guards to avoid lift and keep the COG low
custom coil spring, link setup
extended wheel base
SJ413 axles, shaved, maybe trussed
31x10.5x15 tyres on 15x8 steelies running massive offset
4 or 6 point cage
better seats, maybe stripped interior
fiddle brakes (possibly selectable lockers down the track)
Escudo/Vitara 16 valve engine/5 speed/transfer/comp/loom
possibly a SC12 supercharger
disc brakes all round, maybe disc brake transfer brake
custom lightweight tube bars all round, decent spotties
aisin manual locking hubs
snorkle, diff breathers, water proofed electrics

I'm sure there are more things I will have missed. If anyone has any comments on faults in or ways to better the current plan that would be greatly appreciated

PARTS I ALREADY HAVE:

3 sets F and R complete SJ413 axles
3 SJ413 transfer cases
1 good running SJ413 stock engine
2 SJ413 5 speed manuals
1 set F and R complete LJ81 axles
1 LJ81 transfer case
1 good SJ413 body
2 good SJ413 chassis
aisin manual locking hubs
avm manual locking hubs

QUESTIONS:

*Are the escudo/vitara gearboxes stronger than the SJ413 versions? I have heard rumours of SJ413s regularly breaking transfer case chains, even on stock vehicles.

*Do the escudo/vitaras run a gear or chain transfer case?

*I don't want it reving too high at 100km, for the sake of fuel economy and noise, using the data and calculator from the link below I came up with a RPM of 2021 at 60mph.

http://www.xtremespyder.co.uk/technical ... ratios.htm

That seems if anything a little too low, would supercharging add enough torque for this to not be a problem?

*Is the SC12 supercharger on a switch very economical A: when running? and B: when not running?

*I'm currently trying to get the main components from an escudo/vitara. A friend has offered me his complete escudo, it has extractors on it, I know it has been hard driven, I was pretty keen on it but then we did a compression test and got these figures:

Cylinder 1. 130psi 125psi 145psi
Cylinder 2. 125psi 125psi 155psi
Cylinder 3. 80psi 85psi 120psi
Cylinder 4. 100psi 110psi 120psi

The first two rows of figures are tested as is, the third row is with some oil squirted onto the top of the piston.

What do you think is the issue? rings? valves? head? cracked piston?

What psi should I be looking for from one of these engines? Holland's Suzuki couldn't tell me, neither could a couple of other places I tried. I found something on google that said: 199psi, lower limit 156psi.

http://www.redlinegti.com/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=34945

*I have also been offered a Escudo/Vitara 16 valve engine/5 speed/transfer/comp/loom for a bit more coin apparantly in good running condition (naturally if I go check it out i will do a compression test on it). If I go check it out and it is good should I go for this one and avoid rebuilding the cheaper one?

If I'm definitely going to go forced induction I will probably want to rebuild anyway. But if I'm sticking with N/A then rebuilding is probably going to be too expensive compared to just picking up another engine, so I would prefer a good runner.

Enough of a novel for now, more questions as they come to mind. Thanks in advance

Ah, someone who has done some research! You my friend should have no trouble getting the answers you seek.



Have you thought about a 4agze? Already supercharged and has pretty good torque for a 1.6 too as well as being a snap to work on (have rebuilt two 4age's which are pretty similar).

I can't comment on their economy but they have plenty of power. I was lucky enough to have a ride in a friend of a friends gze powered shorty and it flew!



Just another option to consider.

at 2000 rpm at 100 k's an hour it will drink a bucket load of fuel.

I'm confused. This is an intelligent, well written post full of tech and research and has no SMS speech in it. Is this still Outerlimits Suzuki section?

Anyway, quick question is this to be a comp or a weekend play thing ontop of the daily driving? Because do you really need such a powerful and complex engine when the Escudo?Vitara setup works as a very reliable and powerful enough engine without adding too much complexity or added starin on driveline components. They work in 4wd conditions like mud an water and are an easy fit.


Many times complex or unusual engines put in purely for a bit of extra power lead to many complications and in many cases unfinished projects sitting in sheds.

To run a 31" tyre the standard Vitara engine will be fine and by adding some t/case gears will make it even better

yes I agree with grimbo on this keep it simple and it will last forever

jimbo

grimbo wrote:do you really need such a powerful and complex engine when the Escudo?

I think it must be a new zealand thing - just speak to CJ

gomulletgo wrote:*Are the escudo/vitara gearboxes stronger than the SJ413 versions? I have heard rumours of SJ413s regularly breaking transfer case chains, even on stock vehicles.

*Do the escudo/vitaras run a gear or chain transfer case?

The vitara transfer is gear driven. 1:1 high range, not sure about low range.

The vitara gear box should, in theory be stronger given that it comes in a car with a bigger engine. That said, i have also heard that the Sierra (SJ413) box is pretty sturdy in its design too.

gomulletgo wrote:*I have also been offered a Escudo/Vitara 16 valve engine/5 speed/transfer/comp/loom for a bit more coin apparantly in good running condition (naturally if I go check it out i will do a compression test on it). If I go check it out and it is good should I go for this one and avoid rebuilding the cheaper one?

If I'm definitely going to go forced induction I will probably want to rebuild anyway. But if I'm sticking with N/A then rebuilding is probably going to be too expensive compared to just picking up another engine, so I would prefer a good runner.

I think this is a matter of personal preference. I like the idea of buying an engine that will do the numbers in stock form - for better reliability, and it will probably end up being cheaper. However, if you enjoy a challenge, or have some money to burn (having fun) then you could definately go the forced induction.

Have you thought about a 4agze?

Yes I have, I want to stick with the alloy engine if I can for the sake of weight, also I can avoid having to pay for/make an engine-gearbox adapter. I was also keen for custom made alloy wheels for low weight until I saw soooo many buckled alloys at the offroad racing nationals the other day.

at 2000 rpm at 100 k's an hour it will drink a bucket load of fuel.

What makes you say that? Is it because the engine will be working at a RPM that is lower than what it was designed to be most efficient at?

I'm confused. This is an intelligent, well written post full of tech and research and has no SMS speech in it. Is this still Outerlimits Suzuki section?

lol

Anyway, quick question is this to be a comp or a weekend play thing ontop of the daily driving? Because do you really need such a powerful and complex engine when the Escudo?Vitara setup works as a very reliable and powerful enough engine without adding too much complexity or added starin on driveline components. They work in 4wd conditions like mud an water and are an easy fit.

Not comp, I hope I can restrain myself from entering it in comps, hopefully selling my other road vehicle will leave me little option but to be kind to the suzi.
No I don't "need" the extra power, but I sure would love it I've been stockpiling SJ413 axles because I thought they would be the weak point.
A theme I am hearing from everyone I am talking to (engine reconditioners, mechanics etc) is that there is just too much cost in going down the route of super and turbo charging, some people have suggested cams, porting, polishing etc, but if I'm going to go to the expense of having it apart to do that stuff I'd like to do everything right while I'm there. For me it's either stock engine with no super or turbo charger, or (for reliabilities sake) a fully rebuilt engine with a super or turbo charger.

Many times complex or unusual engines put in purely for a bit of extra power lead to many complications and in many cases unfinished projects sitting in sheds.

I hear you, I'm getting more and more convinced to stay N/A for the benefit of reliability and at the cost of

To run a 31" tyre the standard Vitara engine will be fine and by adding some t/case gears will make it even better

Adding transfer case gears to which case? the SJ413 or the Vitara? I'm still not sure which is the better gearbox and or transfer to run. Also I wanted to avoid gears because I was under the impression it was expensive (although to be fair I have not looked into that)

The vitara transfer is gear driven. 1:1 high range, not sure about low range.

1.816 all the factory ratios are on that page that I linked above

gomulletgo wrote:

Have you thought about a 4agze?

Yes I have, I want to stick with the alloy engine if I can for the sake of weight, also I can avoid having to pay for/make an engine-gearbox adapter. I was also keen for custom made alloy wheels for low weight until I saw soooo many buckled alloys at the offroad racing nationals the other day.

at 2000 rpm at 100 k's an hour it will drink a bucket load of fuel.

What makes you say that? Is it because the engine will be working at a RPM that is lower than what it was designed to be most efficient at?
Yep, at that revs the engine is not efficently making power, so will require more right foot to maintain speed. 3000rpm for 100, maybe more, will make a much happier drive.

I'm confused. This is an intelligent, well written post full of tech and research and has no SMS speech in it. Is this still Outerlimits Suzuki section?

lol
n00bs take note, this is how its done.

Anyway, quick question is this to be a comp or a weekend play thing ontop of the daily driving? Because do you really need such a powerful and complex engine when the Escudo?Vitara setup works as a very reliable and powerful enough engine without adding too much complexity or added starin on driveline components. They work in 4wd conditions like mud an water and are an easy fit.

Not comp, I hope I can restrain myself from entering it in comps, hopefully selling my other road vehicle will leave me little option but to be kind to the suzi.
No I don't "need" the extra power, but I sure would love it I've been stockpiling SJ413 axles because I thought they would be the weak point.
A theme I am hearing from everyone I am talking to (engine reconditioners, mechanics etc) is that there is just too much cost in going down the route of super and turbo charging, some people have suggested cams, porting, polishing etc, but if I'm going to go to the expense of having it apart to do that stuff I'd like to do everything right while I'm there. For me it's either stock engine with no super or turbo charger, or (for reliabilities sake) a fully rebuilt engine with a super or turbo charger.

Getting an engine that will make the numbers you want standard of with little modification will make life much easier for you.

Many times complex or unusual engines put in purely for a bit of extra power lead to many complications and in many cases unfinished projects sitting in sheds.

I hear you, I'm getting more and more convinced to stay N/A for the benefit of reliability and at the cost of

To run a 31" tyre the standard Vitara engine will be fine and by adding some t/case gears will make it even better

Adding transfer case gears to which case? the SJ413 or the Vitara? I'm still not sure which is the better gearbox and or transfer to run. Also I wanted to avoid gears because I was under the impression it was expensive (although to be fair I have not looked into that)

The vitara transfer is gear driven. 1:1 high range, not sure about low range.

1.816 all the factory ratios are on that page that I linked above

Adding gears that lower both high and low range will help. By lowering high range, your cruising revs will come up, making your motor much more drivable. The drop in low range will make the car much more capable and controlled offroad too. For 31's, something with about 18% drop in high and around 180% in low will make things much better. Check the US sites for prices, id you can do the install yourself you should have a build t-case in the rig for under a grand from start to finish.

Layto....

Yep, at that revs the engine is not efficently making power, so will require more right foot to maintain speed. 3000rpm for 100, maybe more, will make a much happier drive.

I was thinking that 2300-2500 RPM would be a good goal for the 100KPH mark. Looks like I have it wrong. I have a friend with a very low kilometer auto escudo (last of the boxy shape) and his sits at 3000RPM at 100KPH and drinks fuel in a bad way.

The mate with the 5speed escudo that I put the compression figures up for said his is pretty hard on fuel too. Something I'm really really trying to avoid! I couldn't believe it when I took his for a drive the other day and it was doing at least 3500RPM at 100KPH and that's on 30x9.5x15s

Although I suppose his may be having to rev harder to make enough power to get to 100KPH compared to a stock engine because of the lower compression.........? anyone think that's right or wrong?

Adding gears that lower both high and low range will help. By lowering high range, your cruising revs will come up, making your motor much more drivable. The drop in low range will make the car much more capable and controlled offroad too. For 31's, something with about 18% drop in high and around 180% in low will make things much better. Check the US sites for prices, id you can do the install yourself you should have a build t-case in the rig for under a grand from start to finish.

Ok. I have been messing around with that calculator and have come up with what I think might be a good couple of options.

Option one: Escudo 16valve engine/SJ413 5speed/SJ413 transfer/SJ413 diffs.

Option two: Escudo 16valve engine/SJ413 5speed/LJ81 transfer (same as LJ80?) /SJ413 diffs

Option one gives me a RPM of 2924 at 62MPH (close to 100KPH)
Option two gives me a RPM of 3243.6 at 62MPH

Option one is appealling to me because I have 2 5 speed boxes and 3 SJ413 transfercases, and all it would require is an engine-box adapter:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =184461333

(no $1000 gears, and no driveshaft modifications that would probably be required with the LJ81 transfer)

On another note, I have been reading a bit about people putting escudo power steering on their SJ413s. Do you think I should look at doing this mod at the same time or should the fiddles suffice for any difficult turns?

gomulletgo wrote:

Have you thought about a 4agze?

Yes I have, I want to stick with the alloy engine if I can for the sake of weight, also I can avoid having to pay for/make an engine-gearbox adapter.

Fair enough about the weight.

You would probably run the T50 box that comes from the factory behind that engine though, and mate it to the Tcase via a shortened jackshaft. No adapter plates necessary.

Good luck with it though, sounds like a cool build.

stick with a vit 5 speed...waaaay tougher and the same gearing.

stick with a vit 5 speed...waaaay tougher and the same gearing.

Gear: SJ413 Escudo
5 0.79 0.795
4 1.0 1.0
3 1.42 1.379
2 1.95 1.947
1 3.65 3.652
R 3.47 3.670

Yes the escudo gearbox ratios are very close to the SJ413 ratios, the trouble is that if I stick with the escudo 5speed I have to do some funky adapter ($$CHA-CHING$$$) between the escudo 5speed (I'm told it's married to the transfer case) and the SJ413 transfer which is divorced.

The reason for this is the transfer case ratios are really different between the escudo ( HI: 1.0 LO: 1.816) and the SJ413 ( HI: 1.409 LO: 2.268 )

The escudo transfer would make the gearing way to high for my application and result in a RPM of 2088.3 at 62MPH

So with transfercase gears costing about $1000 and escudo gearboxes not being that cheap compared to SJ413 or SJ410 gearboxes in this country, and taking into consideration that I already have two SJ413 boxes and an engine to box adapter will only cost $210 I think at least in the short term I will use the SJ413 boxes, with the money I save on gears I should be able to give one of the boxes a freshen up. I will try and pick up an escudo box/transfer when I buy the engine/comp/loom...........so if I blow my SJ413 boxes regularly enough I can swap back to escudo box/transfer.......buy the gears and sell my $210 adapter.

I hope all that makes sense, feels pretty cryptic even to me

Good luck with it though, sounds like a cool build.

Cheers

If you use an escudo manual there's no need for any sort of adapter - the jackshaft fits straight in.

The autos need adapters.

Steve.

Id stay with the Sj413 box and get one of bens adaptor plate ,for simplicity sake .
I would also definitly look into power steering , it made mine alot nicer to drive on and offroad, and if you are going to be using fiddle brakes you need to be able to spin the steering wheel with one hand while controling the fiddles at the same time.

If you use an escudo manual there's no need for any sort of adapter - the jackshaft fits straight in.

The autos need adapters.

Can you please be a little more specific? This "jackshaft" that you refer to, what is that? Is that the shaft that comes out the back of a normal RWD gearbox that consists of splined section/uni/shaft/uni/mounting flange to mount to the divorced transfer case flange?

I'm failing to see how that would be the same between a SJ413 and an escudo if what my friend said about escudos having a married gearbox/transfer is true

If the escudo and the SJ413 both ran divorced transfer cases from the factory I could understand it.

Anyone else who knows the answer to this question please fire ahead, even a link that shows an escudo 5speed and transfer together would be nice

Id stay with the Sj413 box and get one of bens adaptor plate ,for simplicity sake

Duly noted, but Gwagensteve makes it sound even simpler! if it doesn't work out I see the SJ413 box being what I will use.

I would also definitly look into power steering , it made mine alot nicer to drive on and offroad, and if you are going to be using fiddle brakes you need to be able to spin the steering wheel with one hand while controling the fiddles at the same time.

Ok I will make a point of trying to get those parts at the same time. I just need the power steering pump and the steering box from the escudo right?

remove the t/case from the escudo box and use as is.

I agree with joeblow on the escudo box, bigger clutch as well. The Jack shaft (SJ413 shaft from box to transfer) spline fit into the escudo box once the transfer in removed, the shaft does need cutting down though and the tunnel will need widening to fit the box in. You will need a custom mount aswell but based on the mods you plan to do these will be the easy bit.

UPDATE: well I now have 6 suzukis I don't know when to say no obviously.

2 Escudos, 1 16valve and 1 8valve
3 SJ413s
1 LJ81


RUNNING BIG WHEELS AND TYRES WITH HEAPS OF OFFSET AND NO BODY OR SUSPENSION LIFT SAGA........PART ONE:

First off I will show what I want to try and achieve with my SJ413 with pictures, the first picture is of a modded suzuki, the next picture is a poorly altered in paintshop version to demonstrate the type of stance I would like my SJ413 to have. The third is a pic of a bit of a rough SJ413 that I have not altered at all that I quite like the stance of.

The reasons I want to run such massive offset and have a wide track are, firstly stability and secondly so the track is about the same width as most trucks (hilux's for example) so that in deep rutted tracks the wheels are both in the ruts as opposed to one wheel in the rut and the other on the high point, I don't want the vehicle to lean into the hard banks and dent up it's panels.

I have talked to the certifier about what I want to do and he put me onto a place that does wheel alterations. I want to run 15x7 inch rims with massive offset and 31x10.5x15 tyres, the trouble is the more I look at the SJ413s and the rim and tyre package that I have in mind the more I think the tyres will swing into the firewall to a large extent, meaning a large amount of the firewall would have to be cut out about where the accelerator is on the drivers side and the equivilant on the passenger side.

Has anyone tryed to do what I want to do? has anyone tryed not only to fit 31x10.5x15s without lift but to also widen the track out to the degree that I want to?......if you have done it or tryed please tell me all about it, pics if you have them

I am considering making up a rough template out of wood to simulate rims and tyres offset to the degree that I want. That way I can see exactly what part of the firewall would need to be cut out and how much.


SOME ROUGH MEASUREMENTS I DID THIS ARVO:
SJ413 body 1400mm wide
Escudo wheel track 1550mm wide
Hilux wheel track 1580mm wide

I want to run a track width about the same as an escudo, the tyres would stick out past the sides of the SJ413 body by 75mm each side.


UPDATED PROJECT PLAN:

SJ413 body and chassis
trimmed guards/ firewall? to avoid lift and keep the COG low
SJ413 axles
31x10.5x15 tyres on 15x7 steelies running massive offset (to be made)
stock suspension for now, definitely stock suspension height
probably power steering
4 or 6 point cage
better seats
fiddle brakes (possibly selectable lockers down the track)
Escudo/Vitara 16 valve engine/5 speed/comp/loom
SJ413 or LJ81 transfer
disc brakes all round, disc brake transfer brake
custom lightweight tube bars all round, decent spotties
rounded tube bar side steps that go out as far as the width of the tyres, to protect panels.
aisin manual locking hubs
snorkle, diff breathers, water proofed electrics
decent stereo.



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That's it for now

That last pic is very wishful thinking, that has next to no up tavel, I like droop but seriously that is a but much. Seriously follow the road more travelled, injected 1.6 with some good gearing and then your fancy linked coil setup if you like. If (and you will I think) you decide on bigger tyres just fit chromo axles for 35" tyres. If you are really set on power I still suggest gearing to bring the revs up at cruising speed and fitting a G13B swift GTi motor with a turbo as it's been done to death ( http://www.redlinegti.com/forum/index.p ... 9644500d9e ) And I appluad you effort to research and ask well worded questions.

actualy keeping out of the ruts because of a narrower track width will actually work in your favour in more times than not. If you are worried about panel damage then fit some sort of bar work

actualy keeping out of the ruts because of a narrower track width will actually work in your favour in more times than not. If you are worried about panel damage then fit some sort of bar work

Yes I understand that, we drive alot on the beach and up shingle based rivers, deep hard sided ruts is something I do quite rarely, but I don't want my truck to get damaged when I do. Stuck I can handle, getting my truck ruined like my hilux would suck. I intend on a fair bit of bar work, but hate the look of exos.

Seriously follow the road more travelled

I'm trying to not follow the pack, in this country alot of people have compromised and just lifted their trucks to fit big tyres, so many trucks rolled in my area in such a short space of time, SJ413s are already prone to tipping over, I am doing what I can to stop that from happening to my SJ413.

then your fancy linked coil setup if you like

Nope, I have had many a look under the SJ413s since that first post and I have come to the conclusion that to fit coils or anything else under it would mean alot of fabrication to retain the factory ride height. So for now my intention is to leave it stock.

If (and you will I think) you decide on bigger tyres just fit chromo axles for 35" tyres.

This vehicle is intended to be a daily driver that is also reasonably capable offroad. Because it's a daily driver and a few other reasons (dont' make me go into it) It is far more important to me to have power rather than big wheels. I want the width for stability on road and on the beach, if I can't fit 31s because too much would have to be cut out of the firewall I would consider 30s.

For the record, the altered picture that I did is only intended to show the location of the wheels and rims in relation to the body, obviously there will be body work cut away around the wheels for up travel and turning.

I have been cracking out the tape measure heaps, pulling wheels off vehicles, comparing things. I think I will be able to get about 3 inches of tire out past the sides of the body with 30s fingers crossed 31s. Hopefully I will get the rims made up soon.

If anyone else can help me with this please do. Has anyone else fitted really deep dished rims and had to cut the firewall? how much? what did you do about the accelerator?

Thanks everyone