Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I had to replace an AC hose in the XF Ute the other day - system had leaked out about 3-4 mths ago - hose closest to the exhaust manifold - heat cracks.

I put a new receiver dryer in as well as insurance, as who know how old it was.

"My Certified Friend" then refilled the system with the "Certified LPG equivalent" barbie bottle and a "certified" home-made hose until the sight glass was clear with the engine at 1100RPM. You need to connect to the schrader fitting on the TX valve - the low(er) pressure suction line. (That's the fat one the comes out the alloy block thing).

You can buy it commercially - it's called Hychill. Works as well / better than R12, MUCH colder than R134A, compatible with whatever oil is in there, and seal compatible. Also not ozone depleting, and only minorly greenhouse polluting.

280gms in the AC system doesn't compare to the 70L of LPG under the tray.
R12 is mildly flammable and makes Mustard Gas when burnt - I prefer LPG.

The interent recommendation is to use a bottle that is 2/3 full, not new. That way the lighter volatiles have been evaporated off first, leaving a slightly heavier mix, which works better (or so google says).
LPG is mostly Propane and Butane.

Of course I am not qualified in this space, so the above is nothing more than my limited experiences and opinion.

Flame away (pun) - but if you have an old R12 car and summer bothers you....

Paul

Yeh tis a nice option, but just be careful though, as technically you have LPG lines running into the cabin which is illegal.

PJ.zook wrote:Yeh tis a nice option, but just be careful though, as technically you have LPG lines running into the cabin which is illegal.

Actually not.

This is a quote from someone on another forum who is quite knowlegible on the topic:

It's actually legal in ALL states in Australia - but in Queensland you have to get approval from the Gas Examiners Office - but they won't give it to individuals.

For a while it was banned in NSW - but from pressure within our industry the Clause (242) was repealled in early 2005 when DellaBosca was in the seat for that sort of thing.

PJ.zook wrote:Yeh tis a nice option, but just be careful though, as technically you have LPG lines running into the cabin which is illegal.

Interesting, I have my LPG in the back of my wagon, fitted by a Gas Fitting shop and passed with mod plate.

At the tank the lines are inside my cabin.

I guess it cant be all that illegal?

Do you have to replace any seals etc to run the lpg in there? My gas has leaked outta my cruiser and I'm to tight to get it regassed

ISUZUROVER wrote:

PJ.zook wrote:Yeh tis a nice option, but just be careful though, as technically you have LPG lines running into the cabin which is illegal.

Actually not.

This is a quote from someone on another forum who is quite knowlegible on the topic:

It's actually legal in ALL states in Australia - but in Queensland you have to get approval from the Gas Examiners Office - but they won't give it to individuals.

For a while it was banned in NSW - but from pressure within our industry the Clause (242) was repealled in early 2005 when DellaBosca was in the seat for that sort of thing.

I stand corrected, you obviously can

Pure Propane is the best of the lot, ask about, you can buy it pretty easy

mlowe76 wrote:

PJ.zook wrote:Yeh tis a nice option, but just be careful though, as technically you have LPG lines running into the cabin which is illegal.

Interesting, I have my LPG in the back of my wagon, fitted by a Gas Fitting shop and passed with mod plate.

At the tank the lines are inside my cabin.

I guess it cant be all that illegal?

Yeah but that is done by someone who knows what they are doing and is also accredited to do so..

So unless your licensed to decommision and repair/regas a cars A/C system and you may know what your doing its still illegal and personally i wouldnt want LPG in my A/C system.. Pay the money and get it done once the right way...

as bogan said who wants a spark and go up thats mega boggy.

From what I remember from TAFE, lpg was very abrasive/dry, and the gas didnt mix well with a/c oils, ie the gas would not pick the oil up to lubrcate the compressor etc. We tried it and was really cold heaps better than r134a. Filling the system with lpg may require a workcover certificate/+plate etc for it to be legal. But we were told it was illegal.

Bezman wrote:From what I remember from TAFE, lpg was very abrasive/dry, and the gas didnt mix well with a/c oils, ie the gas would not pick the oil up to lubrcate the compressor etc. We tried it and was really cold heaps better than r134a. Filling the system with lpg may require a workcover certificate/+plate etc for it to be legal. But we were told it was illegal.

Same thing i was taught in tafe when i did my ticket it was bloody cold but not good for the system IE seals compressor etc etc.. But htne again this was a few years ago...

They use LPG as a refrigerant in massive commercial A/C systems (a hospital in melb. does from memory).

I preffer the real deal though. After i had my A/C regassed a few weeks ago, the bush trip not long after revealed a crook o-ring in one of the joins.

I spose i'll have to wait till it gets stinking hot now to get it regassed!!

And FYI, Hychill only requires 30% the weight of your normal refrigerant.

BOGAN V8 wrote:
Yeah but that is done by someone who knows what they are doing and is also accredited to do so..

So unless your licensed to decommision and repair/regas a cars A/C system and you may know what your doing its still illegal and personally i wouldnt want LPG in my A/C system.. Pay the money and get it done once the right way...

Someone who "knows what they are doing and is also accredited to do so" will be regassing my AC with HYCHILL when I reinstall it. Hydrocarbon is a much better refrigerant - especially for old systems.

mlowe76 wrote:

PJ.zook wrote:Yeh tis a nice option, but just be careful though, as technically you have LPG lines running into the cabin which is illegal.

Interesting, I have my LPG in the back of my wagon, fitted by a Gas Fitting shop and passed with mod plate.

At the tank the lines are inside my cabin.

I guess it cant be all that illegal?

It is illegal (kindof)
The lines from your tank are inside a plastic hose that is vented to the outside and sealed from the inside of the car. Makes them "outside" if you get my drift.

But - Hychill is legal so go figure - probably to do with tickets / certifications are above.

Paul

i have been using r290 (LPG) for years in all sorts of a/c systems and have not had any let me down

I lost all the gas and a heap of that evil green oil when i had to change the heater core earlier in the year. Had it re-gassed and what ever else needed doing yesterday and for $130 Im as happy as a tub of ice-cream in a freezer

Is using LPG the same as using say your BBQ gas bottle to fill your air con??
Just curious is all.

nottie wrote:Is using LPG the same as using say your BBQ gas bottle to fill your air con??
Just curious is all.

The commercial gas is called HYCHILL. It is a mix of hydrocarbons and high purity. It is not the same as LPG or straight Propane.

HOWEVER, a few people have used BBQ LPG - e.g. Dougal and me3 on here, and it seems to be working OK for them.

I remeber seeing the impellors on the pumps from LPG systems at servos .. I was amazed at how worn they were. The vane type pumps got pretty trashed as well.
Dunno if I would put it into the my AC unit based on that.

Yeah

Little more detail

Open valve to pressurise system with gas - this will turn engage presure switch so compressor can run. Listen for obvious leaks.

{if system has been ungassed for a while, pressurise, then "vent" it a few times -this will get rid of most air in system. Easier than a vacuum pump. If system ahs been open to air you'll need to replcace the receiver dryer - about $40 from Repco.)

Once you are happy with above.
Start engine and turn on AC - compressor should run.
Sight glass will go from clear - white (foam) - bubbles - clear.
Stop filling when clear@1200rpm ish.

Don't overfill - no benefit.

Check for leaks after - soapy water and ears. Repair as required.

If you have done something dramatic like replace compressor - you'll need new oil - get that done professionally.

Paul

ISUZUROVER wrote: HOWEVER, a few people have used BBQ LPG - e.g. Dougal and me3 on here, and it seems to be working OK for them.

2 cars for one year. One was originally R12, the other originally R134a.
No regrets, no problems at all.

Hychill and other commercial hydrocarbon refrigerants are not available here, that's why I've done it. If I could purchase the proper HC gas mix I would.

Where might one buy the fittings to attach from you gas bottle to the air con ?
Don't you need to depress the valve to let the gas in or out like a car tyre tyre valve ?

Wish I had coils wrote:Where might one buy the fittings to attach from you gas bottle to the air con ?
Don't you need to depress the valve to let the gas in or out like a car tyre tyre valve ?

Buying the adaper to convert the old R12 fittings to the new R134a type is well worth it. You then buy a quick connect line fitting which includes an almost zero loss method to depress the pin and let gas in/out.

where would you get this stuff ???
Parts shop repco, bursons ???

Wish I had coils wrote:where would you get this stuff ???
Parts shop repco, bursons ???

I found a specialist auto-air shop. But anyone who does aircon work can sell you the parts, just depends if they will.

With the amount of AC parts i have had to repair or replace due to leakages there is no way on earth i would be using LPG in an automotive system. The first thing you are going to know about a leak on the inside is just before you do the drop and role technique.

LPG tanks fitted to the inside of the vehicle are totally sealed from the internal compartment and are vented outside. They also do not use rubber o-rings to seal anything. Or have flimsy aluminium fittings and cores.

It is very common for AC units to develop leaks on the inside of a vehicle and these leaks are vented to the inside of the vehicle. Its very uncommon for LPG units to leak full stop. And if they do develop a leak on the inside of the vehicle they are vented to the outside unless they have been incorrectly fitted or tampered with.

Also there are no laws which guide manufacturers as to how close an AC line can be from a potetial hazzard like an exhast manifold. And as me3 knows to well AC hoses dont handle heat very well as this was the cause of his original leak. And he then replaces the house and re-gasses the system with LPG Good luck with the next leak

If your system is out of gas the chances are it allready has a leak. Filling it with LPG isnt going to fix the leak allthough im sure it could easily make you beleive the heater is working great

Does LPG work as a cooling Gas? Yes better than most.
Is LPG flamable? Yes more so than most Refrigerant gases.
Should i use LPG in a automotive AC system that possibly allready has a leak? By all means. Darwins theory could allways do with a little more evidence to prove he was right.
Re-gassing an AC unit is relativly cheap compared to multiple skin grafts for you and your family members.



Before you all start with ive used it for years and had no issues. It still does not make it safe. There are alternatives that are totaly safe and they are available at every AC specialist in the world.

RUFF wrote:With the amount of AC parts i have had to repair or replace due to leakages there is no way on earth i would be using LPG in an automotive system. The first thing you are going to know about a leak on the inside is just before you do the drop and role technique.

LPG has a very strong stenching agent added. If there's a leak you'll smell it very easily and you're not going to get ignition without an ignition source.
The amount of hydrocarbon gas in an AC system is tiny. The consequences of a leak are far smaller than if a tin of camping gas develops a hole.

RUFF wrote: LPG tanks fitted to the inside of the vehicle are totally sealed from the internal compartment and are vented outside. They also do not use rubber o-rings to seal anything. Or have flimsy aluminium fittings and cores.

Plenty of LPG tanks are installed directly inside vehicles and completely unsealed from the passenger compartment, this does shoot down your comparison a little.

RUFF wrote: Also there are no laws which guide manufacturers as to how close an AC line can be from a potetial hazzard like an exhast manifold. And as me3 knows to well AC hoses dont handle heat very well as this was the cause of his original leak. And he then replaces the house and re-gasses the system with LPG Good luck with the next leak

Flammable items under the bonnet, OMG call the X files.

Why would a manufacturer put an AC line (which they're trying to keep cool) near something hot like an exhaust manifold?

RUFF wrote: If your system is out of gas the chances are it allready has a leak. Filling it with LPG isnt going to fix the leak

I'm struggling to not use sarcasm on this one. It's hard.

RUFF wrote: Does LPG work as a cooling Gas? Yes better than most.
Is LPG flamable? Yes more so than most Refrigerant gases.
Should i use LPG in a automotive AC system that possibly allready has a leak? By all means. Darwins theory could allways do with a little more evidence to prove he was right.
Re-gassing an AC unit is relativly cheap compared to multiple skin grafts for you and your family members.

Before you all start with ive used it for years and had no issues. It still does not make it safe. There are alternatives that are totaly safe and they are available at every AC specialist in the world.

Would you rather breathe the gas from an LPG flame or a freon one? The burning freon will kill you and everyone else who breathes it in.
The lubricating oil in your AC lines will burn pretty well.

What are these "totally safe" alternatives?
HCFC based refrigerants which roger the ozone layer (albiet more slowly than their CFC cousins)?
Systems running on air or nitrogen are ideal, but not a drop-in for your average car.

KiwiBacon wrote: LPG has a very strong stenching agent added. If there's a leak you'll smell it very easily and you're not going to get ignition without an ignition source.
The amount of hydrocarbon gas in an AC system is tiny. The consequences of a leak are far smaller than if a tin of camping gas develops a hole.

Lucky no one smokes in cars these days It only takes a tiny amount to go boom 280grms is a lot when its under pressure. Ive seen how long it takes for this much gas to escape when a line has been undone. I wouldnt like to be in the area when there is an ignition source close by.

KiwiBacon wrote:Plenty of LPG tanks are installed directly inside vehicles and completely unsealed from the passenger compartment, this does shoot down your comparison a little.

Here in Australia they are not legaly fitted if installed in this way.

KiwiBacon wrote:Flammable items under the bonnet, OMG call the X files.

Why would a manufacturer put an AC line (which they're trying to keep cool) near something hot like an exhaust manifold?

Looked under many bonnets The XF as stated above in the first post is a prime example.

KiwiBacon wrote:Would you rather breathe the gas from an LPG flame or a freon one? The burning freon will kill you and everyone else who breathes it in.
The lubricating oil in your AC lines will burn pretty well.

Freon or oil does not ignite as easy as LPG.

KiwiBacon wrote:What are these "totally safe" alternatives?
HCFC based refrigerants which roger the ozone layer (albiet more slowly than their CFC cousins)?
Systems running on air or nitrogen are ideal, but not a drop-in for your average car.

We are not talking about the environment here we are talking about the Automotive Applications of LPG in an AC system. There are alternatives that are much safer in Automotive applications.

If it was totaly safe to use LPG in Automotive AC systems then why are there no(non i know of anyway) Automotive manufacturers currently using LPG instead of Refrigerant gases? LPG is much cheaper than the alternatives and im pretty sure almost all manufacturesrs build vehicles to a cost.

RUFF wrote: Freon or oil does not ignite as easy as LPG.

Blow a broken AC line onto a hot surface and you produce a concoction of extremely nasty gases. I don't know the exact composition, but they include flourine and chlorine.
They kill in small quantities.

The way oil leaves a ruptured AC line would create a mist that would stick and ignite on any surface hot enough.
Many people have lost vehicles to oil lines rupturing and spraying onto hot exhausts.

I'd much prefer to see a few grams of hydrocarbon being burnt than four times as much freon.

KiwiBacon wrote:What are these "totally safe" alternatives?
HCFC based refrigerants which roger the ozone layer (albiet more slowly than their CFC cousins)?
Systems running on air or nitrogen are ideal, but not a drop-in for your average car.

RUFF wrote: We are not talking about the environment here we are talking about the Automotive Applications of LPG in an AC system. There are alternatives that are much safer in Automotive applications.

If it was totaly safe to use LPG in Automotive AC systems then why are there no(non i know of anyway) Automotive manufacturers currently using LPG instead of Refrigerant gases? LPG is much cheaper than the alternatives and im pretty sure almost all manufacturesrs build vehicles to a cost.

If you put R134a (which you're probably angling towards) in an R12 system you'll kill the performance of it and have to replace many expensive components.

Maybe you're under a rock, but R134a is on the way out. Of the alternatives hydrocarbons are winning in most categories.
R152a, R600, plenty out there but I don't know which on the new car makers are gravitating towards. Don't expect the change to be driven from the US, expect it to be opposed by their industry (like any change really).
CO2 and other straight gases are an option, but you need very high working pressures.