Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I know the purpose of diff drop brackets is so you can save your CVs and still run larger tyres and hence raise the body/chassis but doesn't it defeat the purpose/benefit of fitting larger tyres because your front diff now sits at the same height as before?

Yes you gain clearance for your sills, better approach/departure/rampover angles due to bigger tyres but your IFS diff is still the lowest point and hence will bottom out just as easily.

Having seen the Snake Racing 4" kits for IFS utes is a great example that I've seen.

What do you guys think?

You've already stated the exact purpose of the diff drop brackets.

IMO, independant is indepandant. The only cure/aide is lockers or SAS.

coxy321 wrote:The only cure/aide is lockers or SAS.

Totally agree with you there.

TheOtherLeft wrote:I know the purpose of diff drop brackets is so you can save your CVs and still run larger tyres and hence raise the body/chassis but doesn't it defeat the purpose/benefit of fitting larger tyres because your front diff now sits at the same height as before?

Yes you gain clearance for your sills, better approach/departure/rampover angles due to bigger tyres but your IFS diff is still the lowest point and hence will bottom out just as easily.

Having seen the Snake Racing 4" kits for IFS utes is a great example that I've seen.

What do you guys think?

The gain will be the same as that on a live axle equipped 4x4.
The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres or go portals.
The drop brackets allow you to run bigger tyres and maintain the proper amonnt of downward travel in your suspension.

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

IFS diffs have better clearance than solids to start with, but yes the main focus of those kits is to get lift for the items you mentioned. Unfortunately it comes at the expense of diff clearance.

That's assuming you need to drop the diff - the CV's I've looked at are not run at their maximum so there's some spare angle / extension available ( remember to allow for bump stop compression ).

Under "normal" ride height conditions, you would certainly not want to run excessive CV angles but I wouldn't assume automatically that a 50mm suspension lift must have a 50mm diff drop. A carefull look and measure might allow a compromise. The extra angle will increase the CV wear but if its not a DD then that might not matter to you.

If you can keep the diff up out of the way then its certainly an added bonus.

So I'd look and measure to see what you can get away with

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

Yeah, but diff clearance is not what you're chasing.

You (I, actually) want more chassis height, for larger tyres and sill etc clearance (as you said.) Where my diff sits is practically immateral.

So i fit these things to enable my front end to ride higher, but still allow for front wheel droop (jounce?) while not over-extending my CVs.

To me, for an IFS vehicle, they make more sense (for this purpose) than a body lift.

Diff drop brackets allow you to straighten the CV angle to something less agressive. By raising the suspension you can fit larger tires, a 2" lift does not require diff drop, a 3" lift will because the CV angle becomes too agressive. Diff drops normally go hand in hand with ball joint spacers which are used to either a) add more lift or b) retrive down travel without adding lift.

The 4" lift kits are better than most solid axles boys will ever admit.
I have seen 4" lifted runners outdo pumped up Patrols and Cruisers.

The aim is to get bigger rubber on for more clearence and better footprint, 2" sus and 2" body lifts will acheive this better than 4" sus lift on IFS.

So

Combo sus and body lift will get bigger rubber on and better clearence.
Big sus lift will get bigger rubber on and better ground clearence for the chassis and items attached to the chassis.

IMO go combo bod and sus or prepare for major mods to go 4" sus only.

Cheers

Ben,

On a Vit when you drop the diff it has a crossmember (can't remember if you have that on your GV) that limits the amount you can lower it and that crossmember is the existing low point anyway so you don't reduce your clearance. By lowering your diff to the crossmember you have allowed your CV's to get back to a more normal operating angle which lets it to cope better with an increased suspension lift. This is irrespective of any change in tyre size. If you then increase your tyre size you will have gained more clearance under the low point which is the crossmember and now also the lowered front diff. The more suspension lift you have, the more the need to look at lowering the diff.

Also, the flatter the CV's, the less power they consume and the less influence they put into the suspension under power.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:Also, the flatter the CV's, the less power they consume and the less influence they put into the suspension under power.

Steve.

And they will last longer, with less chance of chopping/floggin out and breaking!! And thats what we all want.

The 4" drop bracket kits enable you to retain standard suspension geometry but gain 4" of clearance for tyres.

The height of the diff in relation to the axle spindle is unchanged so you dont loose any diff clearance watsoever. but you can then wind in 2" of suspension lift giving a total of 6" susp lift and 2" additional diff clearance if thats what your chasing but is not really necessary as the IFS already has good clearance.

The straighter the CV's the less likely they are to go bang.

With a bit of mods you can also gain a considerable amount of extra travel from the 4" lift kit too.

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

How ?
When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down. So by addding a bigger tyre you gain the same amount of clearance as you would on a live axle ...

On a GU you can run a 285/75 on stock suspension .. so I can get a extra inch of clearance no problem .. now if I install a 2 inch lift kit my clearance stays the same.

MightyMouse wrote:That's assuming you need to drop the diff - the CV's I've looked at are not run at their maximum so there's some spare angle / extension available ( remember to allow for bump stop compression ).

Under "normal" ride height conditions, you would certainly not want to run excessive CV angles but I wouldn't assume automatically that a 50mm suspension lift must have a 50mm diff drop. A carefull look and measure might allow a compromise. The extra angle will increase the CV wear but if its not a DD then that might not matter to you.

If you can keep the diff up out of the way then its certainly an added bonus.

So I'd look and measure to see what you can get away with

But you also run out of downward travel, making a very rough ride.

love_mud wrote:

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

How ?
When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down. So by addding a bigger tyre you gain the same amount of clearance as you would on a live axle ...

On a GU you can run a 285/75 on stock suspension .. so I can get a extra inch of clearance no problem .. now if I install a 2 inch lift kit my clearance stays the same.

yes but your ramp over gets better.

Cheers

love_mud wrote:

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

How ?
When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down. So by addding a bigger tyre you gain the same amount of clearance as you would on a live axle ...

When you drop the diff on a Vit, it has no bearing on the suspension. The control arms are still in their original position.

cj wrote:

love_mud wrote:

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

How ?
When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down. So by addding a bigger tyre you gain the same amount of clearance as you would on a live axle ...

When you drop the diff on a Vit, it has no bearing on the suspension. The control arms are still in their original position.

Perhaps you missed the DROPPED bit.

When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down.

cj wrote:

love_mud wrote:

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

How ?
When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down. So by addding a bigger tyre you gain the same amount of clearance as you would on a live axle ...

When you drop the diff on a Vit, it has no bearing on the suspension. The control arms are still in their original position.

Also the lowest point on a Vit is the crossmember not the diff centre as it is on alot of other IFS 4x4's.

love_mud wrote:
Perhaps you missed the DROPPED bit.

When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down.

TheOtherLeft wrote:I know the purpose of diff drop brackets is so you can save your CVs and still run larger tyres

I think CJ's reponse is still relevant to the original question - Ben was asking about diff drops in relation to CV angles.

Steve.

love_mud wrote: Also the lowest point on a Vit is the crossmember not the diff centre as it is on alot of other IFS 4x4's.

Aha, that's a very good point. I didn't think of that one.

Top stuff.

So it is a vehicle-by-vehicle basis as to whether a dropped diff does decrease clearance or not relative to the original setup.

Gwagensteve wrote:

love_mud wrote:
Perhaps you missed the DROPPED bit.

When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down.

TheOtherLeft wrote:I know the purpose of diff drop brackets is so you can save your CVs and still run larger tyres

I think CJ's reponse is still relevant to the original question - Ben was asking about diff drops in relation to CV angles.

Steve.

Not knowing alot about IFS lifst .. how many kits drop the diff without lowering at least the A Arm mounting point.
He was asking about the Snake 4 inch IFS kit that does drop all the mounting points as well as ths diff centre.

Having seen the Snake Racing 4" kits for IFS utes is a great example that I've seen.

love_mud wrote:

cj wrote:

love_mud wrote:

TheOtherLeft wrote:

love_mud wrote: The only way to increase clearance under the diff is to run bigger tyres.

But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

How ?
When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down. So by addding a bigger tyre you gain the same amount of clearance as you would on a live axle ...

When you drop the diff on a Vit, it has no bearing on the suspension. The control arms are still in their original position.

Also the lowest point on a Vit is the crossmember not the diff centre as it is on alot of other IFS 4x4's.

Perhaps you missed what I said earlier

cj wrote:Ben,

On a Vit when you drop the diff it has a crossmember (can't remember if you have that on your GV) that limits the amount you can lower it and that crossmember is the existing low point anyway so you don't reduce your clearance. By lowering your diff to the crossmember you have allowed your CV's to get back to a more normal operating angle which lets it to cope better with an increased suspension lift.

love_mud wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

love_mud wrote:
Perhaps you missed the DROPPED bit.

When you set up a dropped IFS lift kit you drop the ENTIRE suspension setup by X inches A arms etc all drop down.

TheOtherLeft wrote:I know the purpose of diff drop brackets is so you can save your CVs and still run larger tyres

I think CJ's reponse is still relevant to the original question - Ben was asking about diff drops in relation to CV angles.

Steve.

Not knowing alot about IFS lifst .. how many kits drop the diff without lowering at least the A Arm mounting point.
He was asking about the Snake 4 inch IFS kit that does drop all the mounting points as well as ths diff centre.

Having seen the Snake Racing 4" kits for IFS utes is a great example that I've seen.

Actually he was asking about diff drop brackets and made a reference to the Snake kit. My responses as you would have seen if you had read them were with respect to a Vit only and not any other vehicle or kit

love_mud wrote:

MightyMouse wrote:That's assuming you need to drop the diff - the CV's I've looked at are not run at their maximum so there's some spare angle / extension available ( remember to allow for bump stop compression ).

Under "normal" ride height conditions, you would certainly not want to run excessive CV angles but I wouldn't assume automatically that a 50mm suspension lift must have a 50mm diff drop. A carefull look and measure might allow a compromise. The extra angle will increase the CV wear but if its not a DD then that might not matter to you.

If you can keep the diff up out of the way then its certainly an added bonus.

So I'd look and measure to see what you can get away with

But you also run out of downward travel, making a very rough ride.

How is this different ? you havn't changed the actual travel simply the position of the diff in relation to the hub centreline. This does of course assume that your not binding on the cv's as per comment

cj wrote: Actually he was asking about diff drop brackets and made a reference to the Snake kit. My responses as you would have seen if you had read them were with respect to a Vit only and not any other vehicle or kit

Sorry .. should have been mind reading there .. When someone writes .. This is an example of what I am talking about .. I really should have known what he was refering to something totally different.

So dropping a diff in a Vit has no bearing on ground clearance .. and eveytheing esle I wrote in relation to the example that was givin other than impled is correct..

Cutting guards is another option to be able to achieve a largea tyre as you can on minimum amount of lift as needed.

also, you dont always need 12.5 inch tyres.....instead of a 33/12.5 tyre with a 4 inch lift, you may find that you can run a 34/11.5 or 35/10.5 with a bit of work.

could probably do the same with a 2 inch supension and 2 inch body and some trimming.

depends at the end of the day what you want to achieve?

Looks? functionality offroad? both?

up to you.

TheOtherLeft wrote:But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

You don't need to drop the diff to run bigger tyres. You drop the diff because you have wound the torsion bars up more than 2 inches.

My last 4wd was a Rodeo and I only had a 2in lift and 31in tyres so never droppped the diff. However if I had of done that the diff was tucked well up into the chassis rails so lowering it 1in would have still not made it the lowest part of the front end by a fair margin.

Besides if you do wind the torsion bars up 3 inches and then lower the diff 1 inch then the diff is still two inches higher than it was. How much higher off the ground is the front diff of a solid axle vehicle after a 3 inch lift?
None is your answer.

Now I have a solid axle vehicle I have to remember where my front diff is as I keep hitting it.

Utemad wrote:

TheOtherLeft wrote:But you don't gain any diff clearance because you've now lowered them. If you run a 2" bigger tyre but have to drop the diff 1" to compensate then you've lost any gains.

You don't need to drop the diff to run bigger tyres. You drop the diff because you have wound the torsion bars up more than 2 inches.

My last 4wd was a Rodeo and I only had a 2in lift and 31in tyres so never droppped the diff. However if I had of done that the diff was tucked well up into the chassis rails so lowering it 1in would have still not made it the lowest part of the front end by a fair margin.

Besides if you do wind the torsion bars up 3 inches and then lower the diff 1 inch then the diff is still two inches higher than it was. How much higher off the ground is the front diff of a solid axle vehicle after a 3 inch lift?
None is your answer.

Now I have a solid axle vehicle I have to remember where my front diff is as I keep hitting it.

thats all well and good .. how much higher is the diff centre off the ground in a live axles equipped 4x4 is the same when the suspension is compressed to the bumpstops as it is when it's at full droop ... it remains realitively static unlike an IFS where the clearance my be anywhere between 40cm or 15cm ..

love_mud wrote:
Sorry .. should have been mind reading there .. When someone writes .. This is an example of what I am talking about .. I really should have known what he was refering to something totally different.

I don't know if I can read minds either but I did read the title of the thread and his first question too.


Utemad, not all IFS use torsion bars but lifting any of them can start to place the CV's at an unfriendly operating angle if pushed too far.