Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok my mate Barry is working on this one for the Jabber dudes.
It involves flipping the outer tie rod so that it mounts through the top of the wheel knuckle rather than from underneath it.
He is getting a tapered bit made up the same profile as the balljoint taper.
We reckon there is enough adjustment on the tie rod to compensate as it will need to be shortened.
This will raise the tie rod about 1" and eliminate the bind on the knuckle balljoint when the wheel lifts off the deck for those running lots of camber from a 2"+ torsion bar lift.
This may also help take some load off the idler arm.
I also saw an add from a 4x4 place that sells heavy duty generic tie rods made out of a much stronger material.
I checked with a few suspension people and they wreckon it's a great mod for a Paj and should pretty much solve the tie rod breakage problem.
It won't have any effect whatsoever on steering/handling according to them.
Some IFS set ups have the outer tie rods mounted through the top of the knuckle anyway.
What are people's thoughts................

Frank.

I'd have to go and have a look at my car to really understand what you're talking about, but if it'll save breaking things it sounds like a good idea.

Is this a "purchase custom bits" deal as opposed to "have bits modified"?

Is there likely to be any issues with regulatory authorities?

Edit:

I've had a look and believe I understand. Does this mod require reaming a reverse taper into the steering knuckle so the BJ comes in from the top? If so, I presume we'd be purchasing modified bits from you/Barry? And I'd need to get the wheel alignment (now 4 hours old) done again?

FWIW, when I come back I wanna be a rear sway bar on a SWB Paj - I'm sure they do nothing!

Scott

i looked at doing this flip a little while ago... I remembered that my old 86 4runner was running the b/j on top of the knuckle and thought that this may be done to mitsu's.....

see pic of a 4runner below (hopefully)...

rob

Bitsamissin wrote:Ok my mate Barry is working on this one for the Jabber dudes.
It involves flipping the outer tie rod so that it mounts through the top of the wheel knuckle rather than from underneath it.
He is getting a tapered bit made up the same profile as the balljoint taper.
We reckon there is enough adjustment on the tie rod to compensate as it will need to be shortened.
This will raise the tie rod about 1" and eliminate the bind on the knuckle balljoint when the wheel lifts off the deck for those running lots of camber from a 2"+ torsion bar lift.
This may also help take some load off the idler arm.
I also saw an add from a 4x4 place that sells heavy duty generic tie rods made out of a much stronger material.
I checked with a few suspension people and they wreckon it's a great mod for a Paj and should pretty much solve the tie rod breakage problem.
It won't have any effect whatsoever on steering/handling according to them.
Some IFS set ups have the outer tie rods mounted through the top of the knuckle anyway.
What are people's thoughts................

Frank.

We were talking about this in the other thread.

That is my desired solution, but I also see a problem with the tierods being shorter. I dont know how that will affect them within the range of motion.

I think it will cause the tires to do some extreame to changes as the tires droop and flex upward.

In order to do it right I think you need to replace the center link as well.

I would get a reamer and ream out the arm to take a larger domestic tierod, get what ever you guys use the most over there. I know here in the US the rock crawling guys have some big 1 ton tierods that they like, and are dirt cheap.

I would use a piece of dom tube as the adjuster for the tierods... with welded inserts. Should make a beefy piece, then get flats milled in it for adjustment.

I dont know a solution for the center link, but personally I would like the mounting points for the tie rods to be further in towards the center. I would like for the tierods to end up with both a stock angle, and length. Again this might be the wrong idea all together.

Hi Guys
bump steer is related to a line drawn between the top and bottom outer joints and another line between the inner pivots.the idler and the steering drop arm both fall on the inner line,and the outer tierod end on the outer line.Then the tierod is usually run parallel to the bottom arm
To check bump steer wind off your torsions and then lift your wagon thru it's wheel travel with a jack,watching your wheels for changes in toe in or toe out.
J Top

Hi Guys
bump steer is related to a line drawn between the top and bottom outer joints and another line between the inner pivots.the idler and the steering drop arm both fall on the inner line,and the outer tierod end on the outer line.Then the tierod is usually run parallel to the bottom arm
To check bump steer wind off your torsions and then lift your wagon thru it's wheel travel with a jack,watching your wheels for changes in toe in or toe out.
J Top

J Top wrote:Hi Guys
bump steer is related to a line drawn between the top and bottom outer joints and another line between the inner pivots.the idler and the steering drop arm both fall on the inner line,and the outer tierod end on the outer line.Then the tierod is usually run parallel to the bottom arm
To check bump steer wind off your torsions and then lift your wagon thru it's wheel travel with a jack,watching your wheels for changes in toe in or toe out.
J Top

That is a good point, if we dont keep the tierod at the same angle as the a-arms through out the whole range of travel it is going to ride like crap on the road.

This flip might keep us from binding up the TRE's, but we also have to figure out how to make the tierod longer as well.

the tie rod dosn't need to be longer,just needs to fall on the outer line,which is sloping in at the top especially when the torsions are cranked

J Top wrote:the tie rod dosn't need to be longer,just needs to fall on the outer line,which is sloping in at the top especially when the torsions are cranked

Interesting, maybe I am not seeing this right? Do you think you could sketch up something in word to post? I would really apreciate it, since I dont have my truck in front of me right now to help guide what I was thinking.

I must be missing something here! When the torsion bars are cranked don't the tierods get wound out to compensate for the angle they are now on? If this hi-steer thing is implemented, won't the tie-rods be returned to (close to) their original length?

Looking a the system in plan view, there shouldn't be a change in any of the geometry over stock. I can imagine that as the wheel lifts (over a bump) the angle of the tie rod will go from horizontal to further off horizontal, effectively causing the wheel to toe out? Is this the potential problem? Surely this will only be a problem once the suspension has lifted past where it would otherwise hit the bump stop? Will this happen at speed, or is it only going to be a low-speed rough-terrain occurrence? At low speed, is it a problem?

Edit: Went back and re-read Doug's post - the bit about tie-rods and A-arms at the same angle now makes sense to me. I can see that this could create a problem, but I guess that until somebody tries it we're not going to know how much of a problem.

Instead of swapping to a hi-steer can the ball-joint taper be welded up and re-drilled on an angle to eliminate the binding on full droop?

Cheers,

Scott

Doug
if you weld or heat your stg arms in most countries you fail your MOT.
I would rather heat and twist or rotate the stg arm to reduce the angle

Doug
sorry Doug called Scott you.
I haven't the computor ability to do as you requested.I suggest you consult something like Steve Smith Autobooks which is where I learned a lot
Carl

So who is going to be the first to try this out?

Frank you should give it a shot before the ifs, you wont be needing the parts. If it turns out horrible you wont be worse for wear.

All kidding aside, am I going to be the only guinee pig on this one.

Dougie, I'll be doing it in a few weeks.
We are getting a tapered drill bit made up for this job should get it next week. Your write I've got nothing to loose by doing it before the SAS.
Everyone I've spoken to reckons it will not be a problem whatsoever and will be a good mod to stop the tie rods binding when a wheel drops.

Bitsamissin wrote:Dougie, I'll be doing it in a few weeks.
We are getting a tapered drill bit made up for this job should get it next week. Your write I've got nothing to loose by doing it before the SAS.
Everyone I've spoken to reckons it will not be a problem whatsoever and will be a good mod to stop the tie rods binding when a wheel drops.

I brought my truck in for an alignment and the mechanic thought the same thing when I mentioned it to him. Let me know the specs of the reamer if you can, so I can try to source a similar tool around here.

Thanks.

I'm happy to give it a go.

Everything else seems to be falling off at the moment so it cant hurt.

Lost a bolt from the top control arm at the weekend (that was interesting for a bit, 300 km from home) Lucky to have nut & bolt in toolbox. No shims means intersting camber and steering. (They went to heaven me thinks)

Front RHS wheel bearing started screaming and had to be replaced (also 300 km from home, 8:30 at night) got home but not overly convincingly. Replaced next day. (Not a job to do on the side of the road - cactus)

Further inspection shows idler assembly is FARKED aswell. Will have to source new one before i can even get the front end aligned.

All in all not a bad weekend - but one I could do without.

If ya don't wanna FARK your POS Frank use mine as a test case 'cause it sure as Shite ain't gunna hurt it (pieces just seem to want to fall off at the moment)

Think I've said my piece for the moment.

Hope y'all travelling better than me.

Yeah I put a straight drag link in and that seems to have stopped the tie rod breakages. Blasted up Rocky Tk no probs on monday. You can even see the outer tie rod balljoint sits at a better angle now with the straight drag link so that seems to have been the issue.
You can get the Pro Max idler arm assemblies from Autobahn for about $130 and mine seems to be ok (hasn't bent yet).

Bitsamissin wrote:Yeah I put a straight drag link in and that seems to have stopped the tie rod breakages. Blasted up Rocky Tk no probs on monday. You can even see the outer tie rod balljoint sits at a better angle now with the straight drag link so that seems to have been the issue.
You can get the Pro Max idler arm assemblies from Autobahn for about $130 and mine seems to be ok (hasn't bent yet).

straight drag link?

Are you trying to say you bent your center link?

Lloyd keeps saying that his bent centerlink was causing him to break all these parts. It doesnt make any logical sense in my mind.

Yep the centre linked was bent, quite substantially.
I got a straight one from a wreck and put it in and had everything re-aligned at a suspension place.
Did a trip last weekend and no broken tie rod.
Lloyd claimed this was also the cause of his breaking tie rods and once he replaced his bent centre linked he didn't break anymore.
Because it was bent it was dragging the left hand side tie rod away from the knuckle and causing the ball joint to be at almost it's maximum angle. So if the wheel would lift off the deck the ball joint would bind and snap the tie rod.
Now the outer balljoint looks at a much better angle just sitting there in the garage compared to before.
I will still do the hi-steer mod though.